Native Son Transcript

More Elephant Intro

[00:00:37] Jason Rudman: Welcome to the latest More Elephant podcast. And this is one in a series of conversations where I want to step away from The chapter or series orientation of the conversations I'm having, whether that be about representation or the changing nature of work or the environment or sustainability.

And I want to shine a light on nonprofit work that I think is in not only incredibly impactful, but I think more people in the world need to hear about to spur ideas, to get involved, and ultimately change the nature of the life that we live. I am honored already and indebted that I'm able to welcome Emil Wilbekin to the More Elephant podcast.

When you look Emil up and you see the words that are used to describe him, he's a journalist, a human rights activist. He is a professor, Professor Wilbekin. He's also a cultural critic and media expert. And, my knowledge of Emil goes all the way back to when I was living in New York City. And he was the editor-in-chief of Vibe magazine.

I had shared with Emil that I still have six key issues stored away somewhere. And they've got to be a meal, what 15, 20 years old. And we're talking, you know, we're talking Biggie and Little Kim on the cover and Mary J. Blige on the cover, just amazing moments in my life that vibe managed to capture. So.

Welcome Emil to the More Elephant podcast. I know this is going to be so enlightening as we get into your story and as the CEO and founder of Native Son that story and how that came to be and what you hope to achieve.

[00:02:32] Emil Wilbekin: Well, thank you. Jason. I am super excited to be here really grateful to be in conversation with you and just I'm just appreciative of your support, Alvin's support, of me, of Native Son, and of the work that we're doing.

[00:02:48] Jason Rudman: The work is really, really important, and I think that is going to come to life as we listen to you about the grounding that got you to form Native Son, and again, I think why it's important, and why we need to continue to elevate it. But I'm going to ask you to take a step back if you would. So... For those in the audience that Emil Wilbekin, let me look him up.

Well, we're going to save people the trouble of looking them up. Would you just, um, spend some time describing who you are and what you did before Native Son?

[00:03:24] Emil Wilbekin: So I was born in Cleveland, Ohio, given up for adoption, was adopted when I was about six months old to this amazing couple. Harvey and Clioda Wilbican, who lived in Cincinnati.

They wanted to have more children. My mother was having, um, challenges giving birth to other kids. I would later learn that she also always intended to adopt. So kind of interesting story, but was raised in Cincinnati. My father was from St. Croix and the Virgin Islands. My mother's from Des Moines, Iowa. So this very kind of blended cultural.

Upbringing in the middle of the heartland and my parents met and married in New York. So we always had this very like New York centric, super cultural, social justice, Christian, super Christian, just like bougie. But like really creative and fun experiences growing up. My parents worked really hard, super hard work ethics.

So education, church, and work were always just super important to them, but also family, culture, and community. And so my parents, you know, worked literally all the time, but always. found time to spend time with my brother and I do homework with my brother and I we do family worship on Saturday nights. We go to church on Sunday.

We always had Sunday dinner together. They always spent Saturday all day with my dad. I had a really amazing upbringing and this very super black neighborhood in Cincinnati, went to college prep high school, wasn't a great student, pushed myself really hard, and then went to Hampton University for undergrad, which is a family school.

So I'm the eighth person in my family. It's a historically black college in Virginia. And Booker T. Washington went there and it was founded, you know, for emancipated slaves as a way to educate them. And so my dad went there, my older brother went there, my aunts and uncles went there. I had an uncle that was the head of ROTC there.

So. The joke in the family was, you can go to college wherever you want, your tuition will be at Hampton University. So that's, yeah, so that's that. So that kind of brings you up to where I'm like formidable or whatever. Right.

[00:06:10] Jason Rudman: We haven't even gotten to the formidableness of Emil. How did that experience...

Shape you. So when I have these conversations, I usually at the end, it's like, what's the one thing you've learned how to, but I feel there's a richness to everything that you described. And you're so purposeful with it that you know where the narrative is going in terms of the work that you had done. If you were to answer that now in this moment, what did that provide you the springboard to do?

How would you qualify the experience up to and leading to Hampton knowing what you're about to talk to us about in terms of then where did you go and invest your time, talent, and treasure?

[00:06:49] Emil Wilbekin: So I'd say the most pivotal moment in my growing up Was when I was six years old and my parents told me I was adopted.

I think it was really radical and brilliant for them to do that. It was shocking, you know, but I'm six years old. So I kind of don't know enough to be traumatized by it. But I remember just being like, wait, what's happening? Cause it kind of was a disruption, right? To what I knew and what other. Kids lives were about right?

So what was genius about it from my parents perspective was they armored me up. They were armoring me up. They were protecting me. They were like, we're not going to have secrets. You're adopted. You know, they told me the information they knew very limited information about my birth parents and reminded me of how much I would love.

And that, I think, becomes a real center point for me of being chosen, being loved, not by my birth parents, but by the family that adopted me to become my parents, really. And I don't consider them anything but my parents. And then, I think also, just kind of radical truth, right? Like, Life isn't perfect. Life isn't this black and white straight line.

It is nuanced. It's messy. It's beautiful. And so I think that what my parents were able to do was they were creating a citizen. They were creating a human being who they knew I was creative. I was creative at a very, very young age. I was like drawing. Like real art on the walls, like not just scribbling with crayon.

I was actually like drawing pictures

[00:08:48] Jason Rudman: Like literally on the walls or actually on paper. I love them for that, but let's just clarify. It was, it was art on the wall.

[00:08:55] Emil Wilbekin: Literally, they would pull the bed back. He's been drawing on the walls again and I'm like, yeah. And they never, they encouraged that and they did all the things for me.

Right. Like I was in little league, I was in boy scouts. I was an acolyte at church. I went to Sunday school. I was in confirmation class. I was on the basketball team. I was horrible, but I was on the basketball team. But they also let me draw, paint, play with puppets and create and live in this world of everything from Star Wars to The Hobbit to Snoopy.

And they just let me be free in that. They never curved. That and they never hurt me, right? And so I also have to say my mother was a feminist. My mother went to law school before my dad was pregnant with my older brother while she was going to law school in the early sixties, my parents were super radical and that's all I ever knew.

So inside our house. We had West Indian art, and my mother was wearing high fashion, and we were listening to B. B. King or Calypso music, and it just was this wild thing, and then we kind of go outside, and it's like, oh, conservative Cincinnati, Ohio. So, I always kind of felt like we were weird, but I kind of loved that we were weird.

[00:10:26] Jason Rudman: And then I think you, after Hampton, you take that weirdness, that beautiful weirdness, your words, and you do what?

[00:10:37] Emil Wilbekin: So after Hampton, a lot happened at Hampton. So I went from being an average student to graduating with department honors, being the editor of the school paper and being very clearly focused that New York was my destination, that I wanted to work in magazines, that I wanted to work in fashion, that I wanted to be fabulous, that I wanted a life that I saw.

On TV and on film, that was very rich and very black, like very unapologetically black. And so I graduate, I... Was applying to grad schools and also interviewing for jobs. So I was interviewing at Condé Nast. I was interviewing at Rolling Stone and Newsweek and Fairchild. And I applied to Columbia School of Journalism and I applied to NYU for master's in American studies and I got into Columbia and the joy in my community.

That I got into Columbia J school, which is the best journalism school in the country was huge. And it was huge for many reasons. It's huge to get into Columbia, but it's also huge because I grew up with a learning disability. It was very difficult for me to learn. I was tutored. I was in summer school. I was in slow learner classes.

And so here I overcame all those obstacles from a lot of rigor and study and hard work and dedication to then get into the premier Ivy League journalism graduate school in the country, but it was everyone else's joy that carried me. And made me be like, Oh, this is really, really a big deal. And so there was the summer break between Hampton and Columbia.

I was like, Oh, I've been so busy trying to get to New York. I didn't plan anything for the summer. And I actually don't want to go back to Cincinnati for another internship at Cincinnati Inquirer, which is what I had done all the previous summers. So I applied late to this study abroad program through Boston University.

To live in London for the summer. And so I lived in London for the summer between under, yes, or London. I lived in South Kensington and it was total culture shock because I was immersed in this all black world. I'm in the middle of London and my flat and I have. Two Jewish roommates and two Asian roommates had lived by myself for two years.

I was like, what is going on? And I was reading Ralph Ellison's Invisible Man. And I just was at this place where I was like, I just came from this black utopia. I'm in London. I'm like, have no idea who I am at this point. I'm reading Visible Man by Ralph Ellison, which is talking about kind of. White supremacy and racism.

And then I have these roommates who are not black and I'm coming out at the same time. So it's like all the things. And one day I was slipping through time out London and I saw a black and white photo of these two black men who were naked, but it was artful. Like you didn't see anything. And they were just like.

Calla lilies. I was like, what is this? And it was a film called Looking for Langston by Isaac Julian. And I read the little write-up. And so I was like, I'm going to sneak away from my group and I'm going to go to Piccadilly Circus and see this movie because there's something moving me about this movie and this film.

And I go. In as a meal will become straight, whatever. And I walked out a meal will become future Native Son. And I literally was the first time on film. I saw images of black gay men that look like me, that was beautiful. That was provocative. That was soft. That was romantic. That was loving, and that was audacious, and I, I walked out a different person of that theater.

And I remember standing in the middle of Piccadilly Circus with all the lights and everything, and like, I could breathe. For the first time? Really breathe. Really? Yeah.

[00:15:12] Jason Rudman: Right. In your true, authentic, this, this is who I am, this is who I'm meant to be on this earth. So that's really powerful and the connection there as well, right?

You've mentioned Native Son, it's the name of the organization that you founded and you're the CEO of. So, from the Piccadilly Circus experience, there's this journalistic, cultural, media arc that tied to Columbia comes to life. How would you describe that part of your experience?

[00:15:46] Emil Wilbekin: When I was in high school, I...

Started tearing out. So my parents back up, my parents were avid readers and consumers of books, magazines, movies, TV, music. So. There was always Time Magazine, there was always Ebony Magazine, there were always, always the local newspapers. There would be other magazines. I started reading GQ at age 12. Like, along with Ebony Man, which was like a short lived Ebony hybrid magazine that they did about men's fashion and whatever.

But I was obsessed with images. And particularly... Photography and in my bedroom wall, and I'm so mad it doesn't exist, and I didn't save it. I created a giant collage of these images, and it would be from interview magazine from Life magazine from Time magazine from Essence from Ebony of black people.

Like fabulous black people. So it's like Naomi Campbell and Mike Tyson from interview or Prince from Rolling Stone. I mean, you name it, Eddie Murphy, Iman, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, like just all these pictures. And it's like this crazy collage. My parents were like, go for it. Do your thing. So I would have already started kind of envisioning something that I didn't know existed.

I never knew it could be a job to create that. I can have a job to create these types of images. By the time I get to Columbia, I'm like, let's go. Like, this is what I've been waiting for my whole life to learn at the best school in the country. How to do this. So the interesting part of Columbia was that everyone there was either there to study journalism and wanted to work at the New York Times, they wanted to be newspaper reporters, or they wanted to be on TV.

They wanted to be anchors. And they wanted to work in broadcast and maybe a few people on radio. I was the only person in my class at Columbia of like 300 and something people who actually wanted to be a magazine editor. The good thing about that was. All of my professors, particularly my magazine and feature writing and professors poured into me.

The other part was there was nobody else. Like it was just me. So I didn't have like other people to bounce off ideas and stuff because they were very focused on news and print. Or news on TV. So my cultural affairs reporting professor, Samuel G. Friedman, who wrote for the New York Times, who had published all these books around black religion and all this stuff.

Was like, you go out a lot. So where, where are you going? Like you're out all the time you're in class, you're alert, but you're, I can tell you've been out and I'm like, yeah, I've been going to hip hop parties. And he's like, well, you should write about that. And I was like, really? I know, but see? Connecting dots that will connect later.

And so, I'm like, oh, that's genius. I love that. And so, I start writing in my cultural affairs reporting class about rap and hip hop in the early, early, early days. This is 1989, so...

[00:19:34] Jason Rudman: To ground everybody, I mean, we just celebrated the 50th anniversary of hip hop, so... You know, if we do our math and we go backwards, when you're starting this writing, not a lot of mainstream coverage of it, if any at all, right, you might get a couple of bylines in the New York times, but it, and not even, and then it's still in this.

I would say experimental stage of this, just so much creativity and so much goodness coming out of that genre in 1989 that it's like, it is for you. I have to believe the perfect recipe. I know what I want to do. I'm at the preeminent journalistic establishment. to do it. And I've been given this genius idea that now I can go run with.

[00:20:25] Emil Wilbekin: So he was a huge influence on me and shaping how I saw the world, how I covered culture and arts, and how I approached it. And then the other professor there was Martha Nelson. And Martha was the editor in chief of Savvy Woman. And she Tapped into the fact that I love fashion and journalism and so she fed me from that side and was like, do you know about fashion journalism?

I'm like, wait, that's awesome. That's an option Let's go like because my parents

[00:21:05] Jason Rudman: You're like I've got all of this on my wall, right? I've got all of this on my wall back in Cincinnati, which is like my vision board I feel like you actually created a vision board without calling it a vision board and now You're amongst these, these nurturers of talent and they see some right, but by definition professors, but they, the beauty of it in hearing you describe it is they saw something in you that was your wildest dream

[00:21:36] Emil Wilbekin: That I didn't see.

[00:21:37] Jason Rudman: That you didn't see.

[00:21:38] Emil Wilbekin: And they nurtured that and they fed that. And I remember Martha would take me to lunch and then take me to her office. And like, I'm like, wow, this is where they make magazines. So those two people particularly, and then they had like a big brother, big sister program, and they paired me with an alum who was working at Time Inc.

named Wilmer Ames, who launched a black news magazine called Emerge. And so. As my mentor, he was like, I know what it's like to be in grad school in New York City and you don't know what's going on and you need money. So here's what we're going to do. You're going to intern at Emerge as you're going to meet me for breakfast once a month at 7 a.m. I'm like, wait, what? And then you're going to come in two or three days a week. You're going to use our computers, actually had computers, which back then I was like, wow, they have computers and. You can use all the computers and the research department and everything to do your work You'll do research and reporting work for us and I'm gonna pay you.

Hey, what's not to like about that, right? So I had these three figures right who are like literally building who I would become and It was amazing and it was nine months and it was super intense I was writing about stuff that I didn't want to write about because I thought I had to write about it And then I was getting to write about stuff that I love that I really like, was just joyful about and passionate about, and that just kind of shaped the direction of how I would move.

And I had to find a job because I was not leaving New York. My dream growing up had always been to live in New York. And so I landed a job at Metropolitan Home Magazine, which was a shelter magazine. But they were doing really radical stuff. The editor Dorothy Kalins was pushing the envelope and doing gay couples and blended families and interracial families and lesbian.

It was like all the things, but it was, they were doing a lot of social responsibility work and they were raising money for. This is the middle of the AIDS crisis. And so they worked with life with housing works and they work with GMHC and they were raising money at these benefits called the love ball where they'd have all these designers and celebrities.

I met Calvin Klein and Sandra Bernhardt and one night volunteering at this event. And that is where I actually. Really came out because most of the editors that male editors at work there were gay and I was an assistant and I, this is my first real work experience outside of my father's office and like internships and so I didn't know I could be gay at work and We went on a sales trip, this is back in the day, obviously, to Acapulco, they took the whole editorial and advertising staff, imagine that, and so we're on the plane, and all the gay guys corner me on the plane, and they're like, you're gay, like, why are you, like, you're gay, right?

Like, we've seen you at the Roxy, and the clubs, and all the things. Right.

Because remember Samuel had said, Hey, you're burning the midnight oil. I know you, I know you're out on the tile. I'm outside the, the streets.

[00:25:08] Jason Rudman: So word was on the street that Emil Wilbekin can, can do, he can walk and chew

gum at the same time.

[00:25:14] Emil Wilbekin: So, and I'm like young. I'm like so much energy. So. I was like, I am, but I didn't know I was allowed to be gay at work is literally what I said to them. And they were like, of course, you are. And so this group of gay guys took me under their wings and particularly this guy, Neal Turner. And I came out to my family because I was empowered to do so.

That was an awful experience because I did it on the phone, like at work. I could go into Newell's office and cry, and then they connected me with PFLAG. Just the support system kept being with me. And I'll never forget, there was this writer, Richard Lakeo, who wrote for Time Magazine. And he wrote a piece for Metropolitan Home, and my editor boss was like, Can you take these layouts, because no computers back then, that were transmitting things.

To take it to his house, and he was at his partner's house. And he's like, can you bring it across the street? I'm at my par And I was so freaked out, because I was like, oh my god. Like, he's gay, and he has a boyfriend, and like, they live across the street. It's like this whole story. And he was lovely, and I dropped off the papers and left.

Like, nothing happened, and it was really cool. But just experiencing that was like an epiphany for me, right?

[00:26:38] Jason Rudman: So some of the work that you've done that I know people are grateful for and grateful because You will the voice in the room and pushing the work that you did at vibe especially Covering hip hop and rap at a time when it was incredibly homophobic and you walked in your truth.

You've just told us about a, you know how you came out, then you made the phone call, not awful, and then you're the editor of chief invite, which again for anybody that doesn't know that magazine. I mean, that was the magazine of that era, along with the source. To me, those were the two magazines and I would have them both.

I love rap. I love hip hop. I lived in New York, but I lived in New York in that moment. And it is so New York, you know, that music is so New York and you have the courage from a very high position to challenge the way people think about an art form and to challenge it's homophobia. Where did you get the courage to do that?

What was the impetus to do it? Um, I think I know the answer to this, but why was it important? Because I think it connects.

Because there's a moment when you make the leap from there to Native Sons. I feel that that's a moment when you realize your power, and I'm talking soft power here, to challenge the way people think about gay men. In this art form that is showing up incredibly homophobic.

[00:28:20] Emil Wilbekin: Right. So I'll fast forward through the vibe part because this part's important.

I start out as associate editor I'm booking all new talent and from Mary J. Blige to usher to outcast I'm breaking all these artists in the pages of the magazine. I then decide I want to go into fashion So I become the style editor from the style editor I become the fashion director. So fashion director, suddenly I'm out of journalism, I'm into the fashion industry, and then I get chosen to be the editor in chief.

What's interesting is everyone's like, but he's the fashion director. Why would you ever give the fashion director the editor in chief job? But people didn't realize I had gone to Columbia, that I started there as an editor that I'd written for the New York Times, Chicago Tribune, Associated Press, so forth and so on.

And it actually was a genius choice because I understood the art and commerce of magazines, but I also loved the music and had a very deep connection with the talent who were creating all this amazing music. So, How did I find the courage to live authentically? Hip hop's about keeping it real. And so I was already out.

I'd already taken my boyfriend and introduced him to Andre Harrell and Russell Simmons and Puffy and Mary and everybody. And I couldn't go back in the closet when I became editor in chief, that wasn't going to work. And that would have been weak. And so I was like, no, I didn't have a choice. Where did I get the courage?

I got the courage from my parents. Who always raised me to speak up for myself, to not let people take advantage of me, to speak my truth, and to always be gracious and courteous in the process, and the other place was It was such an awful homophobic experience that I had with my parents when I came out and they later came around and we all did through therapy and so forth, but that moment of coming out and how my mother specifically treated me sparked activism in me that I was like, I don't want anybody to have to go through this.

That's the juice because it's one thing to say, I'm not going to put myself back in the closet. It's another, through your activism and on the pages of the magazine, to challenge cultural concepts that, again, does not celebrate gay men in a positive light. I mean, at that time, it was not, you know, the lyrics,

the commentary, misogynistic, transphobic, like, awful.

[00:31:18] Jason Rudman: All the phobics, right? It showed up that way. And so again, I just wanted to draw out that you were not silent in that, and it came through in the writing, in the magazine, the things that you covered, and ultimately changed the perception. Of hip hop and how people and what what was wrapped about what was talked about over time.

[00:31:45] Emil Wilbekin: Yeah, and it was powerful, right? And it was hard was not easy. You know, I always worried about like, would someone try to beat me up or like hurt me? Right. Because I was so out and so gay. Right. And then also the thing that no one talks about is the gay community, the black gay community specifically, but the gay community overall was not supportive of it because they felt like I was being complicit around the music and the lyrics and the homophobia, which I was Absolutely not.

And then the Black, queer, and gay community felt like I was outing them. It was hard. It was really, really, really, really hard. But the thing was, I was already there, and I, again, I couldn't turn back. So, I was like, well... Here's the assignment and, you know, then I suddenly become this like LGBTQ darling and I'm on New York magazine power list of power, gay people.

And, and it was interesting. It was, it was a lot. And then in the black community, you know, I kind of become the celebrity because it scared people, but people wanted to be free. They wanted to be emancipated. They just didn't know it.

[00:33:14] Jason Rudman: They didn't know it and, and didn't necessarily have an outlet or somebody to look to.

[00:33:21] Emil Wilbekin: They didn't have the language or possibility model.

[00:33:24] Jason Rudman: So I feel like that's a perfect segue to NativeSUN. Yeah. And so why NativeSUN? What's the More Elephant moment or a series of moments that led you to create the, the brand and the platform. And if you would describe for the audience, the central idea and the premise of the Native Son narrative.

[00:33:45] Emil Wilbekin: So the More Elephant part of Native Son was, I was working at Essence magazine and I was surrounded by all these fabulous, amazing, brilliant, bold, audacious black women. Who were supporting other beautiful, bold, brilliant, audacious black women. And I would sit in the rooms and I feel such an affinity to it, right?

Like my feminine side was super hyped up, but like my black gay self was like, I want this from my community because we're fabulous too. And this doesn't exist. And I literally. Remember just being around Susan Taylor and Oprah Winfrey and all these powerful women and being like, I want to do this, I want to create this for my community.

And so I just live, learned, worked really hard, contributed a lot to essence, but it took away so much. So there was that at simultaneously, what was happening was. The trans movement was starting to gain traction, and I remember I became friends with Janet Mock when I was at Essence because she was at People Magazine, and she came out in Mary Claire, which happened to be written by my little sister from Hampton, and

[00:35:07] Jason Rudman: And so time bound that for us, that's, what are we talking about?

[00:35:10] Emil Wilbekin: That is 2009.

[00:35:10] Jason Rudman: 2009.

[00:35:13] Emil Wilbekin: Yeah, it's like 2009, 2010. And I just was like, wow, these Black trans women who are so brilliant, smart as AF, and, and glamorous and on red carpets. But they're not talking about who designed their dress. They're talking about the violence against black trans women. And I was like, we got to do better black gay men.

Like we're in the bars and the clubs and on the apps, but we're not advocating for ourselves. And we're kind of comfortable living in the closet. I just was like, this isn't right. So, so that leads to, I get laid off from my job after four or five years at Essence. Doing incredible work, learning a lot, being mentored by Michelle Ebanks, who was then the president.

And I go to India, because I'm laid off, I've got to transform, and I want to go somewhere where I feel completely uncomfortable, I don't know the language. My ex lived there, and he had been trying to get me to come visit, so I was like, great, I can crash at your place. But I went on a retreat to an Ayurvedic place in the south of India, where it is an ancient kind of practice of cleansing and detoxing and healing.

And you basically do meditation, you eat vegetarian, there's very little Wi-Fi. You're in isolation and you do this. Really intensive lymphatic massages every day. And you do yoga and meditation. And one day I was sitting on the little patio, listening to the fishermen on the beach, pulling in the boats and the nets and the fish and chanting.

And I literally heard a voice that was like black gay men, and I was journaling and I was like, okay, what is that? And then I just kept writing and I thought about having the privilege to be out as editor in chief of Vibe, the privilege to be out and work in Essence, and all the black gay men that didn't have that privilege.

And I thought about, we need something, we need an intervention, the HIV numbers are through the roof, people are not happy. But there's all these brilliant black gay men that came before us and what did they suffer through? What did Bayard Rustin and Alvin Ailey and Langston Hughes and James Baldwin and Alan Locke?

Like, what did these men go through? And I came home and I was so excited and I was this epiphany in India. I had my e pray love moment. I'm cleansed. I'm glowing. And all my family and friends were like, you've been talking about for years. I'm like, really? Y'all and they're like, no, you have, you've been talking about wanting this community, wanting an organization, wanting that brotherhood.

But I hadn't been conscious of it. So I'm now like, okay, what am I doing? I have a severance, but like, I want to build something. And I look at my bookshelf and I see James Baldwin's notes of a Native Son. And I'm like a marketing person and branding person for media. And I'm like, Native Son would be a perfect brand name.

And James Baldwin would be the perfect icon for. Whatever this is going to be. And then I went on a listening tour for that summer. And I met with black gay men of all ages and interviewed them. I invite them to coffee and I would have a conversation with them. What are your joys? What are your shame?

What. Are you positive? Did you come? When did you come out? Your family disowned you? Are you with a partner? Do you want to have kids? I just have conversations. Parts of it were really hard because it unearthed and triggered stuff within me like the coming out stories or maybe there are. being positive and dealing with that.

Um, and then there was so much joy and it was this idea of being a reflection and a mirror of each other. And so I took that back. And then the other thing that happened simultaneously was that my best friend Calvin was getting married. So I had to, on this best friend, I had to do the bachelor weekend.

And so I said, what do you want to do for your bachelor weekend? And they had a house upstate. He's like, I want it to just be all my black gay friends. And so I invited the boys and we all went up and they talk about it. Now they were like, you could not stop talking about this idea of Native Son. And so the idea then kind of birthed into inspiration and empowerment.

For black, gay and queer men, and how are we reflections of each other? How do we celebrate each other, but also how do we like essence and black trans women lift each other up, right? How do we support each other? And I'd seen that in white LGBTQ communities. I'd seen it in Asian and Jewish ones in Latin, even, but I hadn't experienced it in the black community.

in an affirming way. And so, you know, we've now developed where the mission statement is harnessing our collective power. So how do we create agency for ourselves? How do we amplify the voices and visibility of Black, gay, and queer men who are, we live at the intersection of our Blackness? Our maleness and our queerness.

And so that's complicated in a world that is littered with white supremacy and systemic racism. But then also just our existence because I'm a black gay man, I still have to deal with all the health challenges and cultural and societal. systemic things of mental health and high blood pressure and hypertension and obesity and diabetes and all this stuff on top of HIV on top of maybe being the only one in a corporate C suite who has to carry the weight of being a black man.

A gay man and a black gay man right and has no allies advocates or surrogates to support them because there's not a lot of people that reach that level .

[00:42:05] Jason Rudman: I was talking with somebody recently on a podcast and the words that come to mind as I listen to you describe the kernel of the idea. The fact that it was around you and you know, people are saying oh, that's great You actually named it, but we've been watching you kind of work through this over a period of years It strikes me that what you described was a love letter to black queer men to celebrate and elevate the individual Within that experience and then contribution in a much broader societal context so I what I heard you affirm was a love letter to a broader community and you felt that this was your moment to be able to bring that to bear I'm also struck that I think it's a love letter to yourself because.

You with the work get to be an even more fully formed Emil than all that you've described. And it's a way to give back to yourself some love for the journey that you're on.

What do you think?

[00:43:13] Emil Wilbekin: I feel like a big acupuncture needle just went inside me. You know that feeling of release of, yeah, no, absolutely.

And I think that that's it. Right. I think it's being chosen. Right. And the unconditional love part. And I think one of the most profound things that I consistently hear from Native Son, from Black queer men, from around the world, is that they don't often feel seen, heard, or respected in the world. We are marginalized of the marginalized.

And we are also the most brilliant of the brilliant, right? And so, I think that... Perfect, right?

[00:44:02] Jason Rudman: I mean, again, I go back to the list of names that you named and you're scratching... Scientists, doctors, you know... Authors... We can move beyond culture to authors. And the contribution, and the contribution to America.

Yeah. That is not celebrated, right? But rather it

is marginalized.

[00:44:22] Emil Wilbekin: Right. And so you think of, I mean, Bayard Rustin, particularly, like, not only was he the architect of the March on Washington, but he is the person who infused Martin Luther King with the idea of nonviolence from his Quaker background, from his other studies, and you know, arguably the, the biggest, most poignant and important civil rights moment of our time was created by a black gay man.

[00:44:56] Jason Rudman: That is being celebrated in film. Right. Director George C. Wolfe's film. starring Coleman Domingo. However, it's 2023 and we're just now getting to that story, which I think is the point, right? He's been an example of a hidden figure for

such a long time.

[00:45:15] Emil Wilbekin: Right. And I think to connect the dots from a Native Son perspective, what makes Rustin the film that Netflix is producing is that it was produced and created by Higher Ground, which is Barack and Michelle Obama's are forever president and first ladies production company, right?

And one of the main producers is a black gay man, but also George C. Wolf, two time Tony winner. And then Coleman Domingo is starring in it. And I think that is the power of what we can be, right, is the allyship and the lifting up of stories because it's important that black queer men know Bayard Rustin's story, but it's even more important that the world.

No fired Rustin story

[00:46:08] Jason Rudman: Because we have all benefited from who he was and what he instilled in Martin Luther

King, right? If I.

[00:46:16] Emil Wilbekin: The freedom the social justice the equality, I mean the Civil Rights Act was passed right after the March on Washington and so because of the lightning rod that was fired Rustin We've all benefited so much.

Now, mind you, they're trying to roll it back now, and we're having to push forward, but there's so many Native sons in position to push forward, right, which is different. There's so many Black queer men who are in the Beltway, on the Capitol, advocating. There's so many advocates and You know, you think of Rashad Robinson at Color of Change and you think about There's all these new elected officials in the country now more than we've ever seen of black gay men black queer men who are Pushing the boundaries.

We're tired. We But but we're always the one like if you think of The, if you think about the gay rights movement, you think about the civil rights movement, you think about black lives matters. There's always black queer people at the center of it always. So this is our role and responsibility. Aside from making everything fabulous and making everything beautiful and illuminating, you know, culture and entertainment and fashion, we're actually changing hearts, minds and consciousness and policy.

[00:47:48] Jason Rudman: And that is the core of the Native Son platform. And so what I'd love is, have you described the programmatic Element Native Son is more than an Instagram handle and more than a collection of fabulous pictures of amazing black. We are men you've got partnerships with corporations and you deliver programming and the celebratory note frequently such that again it you show up and ensure that a broader society.

is aware of why this representation matters. So you hit on a few of the things that Native Son has created that enable this to continue to

grow.

[00:48:36] Emil Wilbekin: The first event

that we ever did and probably our biggest tentpole franchise is the Native Son Awards. So we celebrate people who have broken barriers, who have shifted culture, who have shifted policy, who've made a change.

In their community, but also in the world. And so the Native Son awards, I mean, we've honored everyone from Darren Walker, from the Ford Foundation to Rashad Robinson of color of change, Alfonso David, Billy Porter, Lee Daniels. I mean, I can just. Keep going on and on, but the Native Son awards are super important because it's again, bringing us out of the closet, right?

It is, let's make sure that these people are visible and that their work is known, that their achievements, their impact. Right on the world is known. And so that's been fabulous. And the other thing that we do that's just really powerful is the Native Son, 101 list, and that is 101 black queer men in one calendar year who have had impact on the world and it covers.

Everything from education to healthcare, to politics, to arts and sciences. I mean, it's just really, really incredible. You know, last year we were editing the list and we had like 200 people that we had to scale down to 101. There's that many, there's Pulitzer prize winners. There's Nobel candidates. I mean, it's, it's insane.

And the other big platform that we do is the Black Gay Leadership Forum. And the Black Gay Leadership Forum is really about professional development and bringing people together at all levels of their profession. So the entry level, mid level, C suite, CEOs. Entrepreneurs and really talking about the issues in a corporate situation, but also holistically, what are real issues that affect us at the intersection of our blackness and our queerness that can impact how we show up at work.

We had a really powerful conversation around blackboard service with James Cole Jr, who sits on our board and. Torrance Boone, what was important about the two of them being on that board. There's four black gay men in the world that sit on the boards of fortune 500 companies and James Cole Jr and Torrance Boone are two of them.

And so that is. A big deal to then have community and sit with them and have them share What does board service look like? What is the power of being on a board why it's important for representation on boards? And then what are the hacks? How do you get on a board? What do you need to do? What do you need to learn?

What path do you need to build from a professional point of view from a financial point of view? How do you build that network? To get consideration for boards and then what are the different types of boards so that was really powerful having entrepreneurs talk about starting their businesses finding success and struggles like how do you get past a buyout how do you know.

Raise capital like basic things but really super important things so it's really about creating this network. That can support each other. And the other thing about the imagery, which I think is lost on people. And they're like, Oh, it's just a bunch of like hot black queer guys. No, it's more than that.

What we are doing is it's almost like art as activism. It is showing and normalizing what black queer life, community and existence can look like in this world that we are worthy of love. So black queer love is one of our biggest franchises because We want to know, we want to see what it's like to be in love.

We want to see what it's like to be loved. And we want to be normalized and get married and have kids and have families. And just the imagery, I can't tell you how many people from around the world, particularly from Africa, DM us or live in the Midwest or down South and where they're like not allowed to be out, right.

It's not safe for them to be out, but for them to see other people that look like them. Is supercharging them to know that they can exist in this world where there's a lot of issues for all of us to exist, right? So we want to nurture that. The other big platform that we created is. Black, queer, and here.

And so that is a town hall where we bring the community together, and we talk about things across the Black LGBTQ spectrum, but also with the Black community at large. So allies, faith based people, mental health practitioners to talk about Us as a community and how we can support each other. So it's been really good.

And we've gotten incredible partnership where a lot of these events and programs are powered and in partnership with everyone from Procter and Gamble to Cadillac to city to Amazon AARP. I mean, it's crazy. Like, all these corporations all support the work of Native Son.

[00:54:13] Jason Rudman: Because

I think the work that you're...

This is about community, right? At the end of the day. And I think that you said it. Your words. You see the role of Native Son in a much larger conversation about representation. Yes. And why intersectionality and conversations around intersectionality are so necessary.

[00:54:33] Emil Wilbekin: That's right yeah, and I think as we are in this period of time where intersectionality is more important but representation right because I think the way that I look at it is Native Sun supporting other Black queer men also opens up the opportunity to support Black women, Black men, Asian women, Asian men, queer folks across the spectrum, trans folks, disabled folks, the elderly.

It's empowering us all to accept ourselves as who we are at our intersections. And also to love the differences.

[00:55:15] Jason Rudman: That is a perfect place to wrap this conversation about introducing Native Son to a much broader group of people who will appreciate everything that you just said about how one person, Emil, can have impact and live their wildest dreams and create a platform.

That, as I said, as I heard you say, is a love letter to, again, yourself, I think, and to a Black male queer community that's all about celebrating and elevating, while recognizing that we have so much work to do, and that this is not just a Black male queer opportunity. The representation from the community and their contribution has to be seen in a much broader societal context that makes the fabric of this country, if we just talk about America, so much better.

And yet for so many seasons in the past, we have not celebrated.

[00:56:23] Emil Wilbekin: That's right.

[00:56:24] Jason Rudman: Awesome. How do people find out more about. Native Son and

Emil Wilbekin.

[00:56:30] Emil Wilbekin: So to find out more about Native Sun, you can go to our website, which is Native Son us, and then all of our social handles are Native Son now. So that is on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and X and YouTube.

And you can donate to Native Son through our website and you can find me at Emil Wilbekin on all social platforms.

[00:56:57] Jason Rudman: Excellent. Well, we will make sure that we're very clear how to find you on all of the social platforms. Thank you. Uh, for your time. Thank you for your work. There's obviously a personal connection given the intersectionality of my family And you know Alvin and we love you and the work that you've done And the work that you will continue to do to shine a light on the black male gay experience For a broader conversation about the power of that, the contribution that it has to the broader society and how we can continue to uplift, support and elevate in the years to come.

So thank you again for your time.

[00:57:38] Emil Wilbekin: Thank you for having me.

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