‘Unpacking’ Representation on Film Transcript

More Elephant Intro

[00:00:37] Jason Rudman: Welcome to the latest More Elephant podcast. And I'm really excited about this one. I say that every time, that I'm really excited.

I am joined by two filmmakers, Michal Sinnott and Alexandra Clayton, who are makers of a really fascinating film that is called ‘Unpacking.’ The subtitle to the movie is Bring Your Baggage, so you can probably already tell that we're going to have a really, really fascinating conversation.

What I was really intrigued about. when I learned the story of Unpacking and then Michal and Alexandra's personal stories, is this idea of talking about women and representation in film. And, this conversation is about women creating and telling stories for and about women. So, Michal and Alexandra. Welcome. Thrilled that you're here.

[00:01:40] Alexandra: Thank you so much. We're thrilled to be here.

[00:01:43] Michal: I love this topic. It's such an important topic.

[00:01:46] Jason Rudman: It is such an important topic if you think about the data. Let's just start at that. Let's start at the top, right? So women, women are 50. 5 percent of the U.S. population.

According to the recent Center for the Study of Women in Television and Film report, women accounted for just 18% of all directors, executive producers, producers, writers, cinematographers, and editors; 9% of all directors; 15% of all writers; 25% of all producers; 20% of all editors, and just 2% of all cinematographers and this data point really, really struck me - 38 percent of films employed zero or one woman in the roles considered…38%.

We have, we know we've got work to do, and both of you are this living, breathing example of how sometimes you actually have to do the work in order for the representation to show. And, I know that we're going to get into some of the challenges that you faced: lack of representation and recognition in the industry at large; lack of access and opportunity to funding.

That's what this conversation is about. Here are the challenges that we've been dealt with and here's how we solved them.  What I'd love before we get into that is for each of you to just give the audience a sense of who you are, the synopsis of Michal and Alexandra.

[00:03:24] Alexandra: So, I live in Los Angeles. I grew up primarily in Northern California. Moved to New York in my 20's and sort of, I guess, and entered my creative path, honestly, in the Bay Area. I've always been someone who learns by doing. I've always been interested in being a storyteller, and I started working in independent film. I didn't have a traditional path with college and started as an actor, but also began sort of contributing to the story in my very first projects as an actor too.

And then, moved on to really writing and trying out directing with some women that I met in New York that were also very interested in making their own content, or I should say art, film, web series. I really take issue with the word content a lot of the time because it sounds much more disposable. And when you're making your own films, no matter the length, it's a lot of effort and consideration a lot of the time. I'd say  that's been my path. That's where I'm at. I still think of myself as a true multi-hyphenate. I like to wear many hats. I love to direct. I love to write. I love to creative produce for first-time directors and I'll always be an actor.

[00:04:44] Jason Rudman: I love that. I will always be an actor. Michal?

[00:04:49] Michal: Yeah, I grew up acting, actually. My mom has her master's in theater. And she's a single parent, and she kind of reigned us into, we all were in plays and then started professionally acting as children.

But, because my mom was a single parent and we really struggled financially. We did not live in a big market - I lived in Virginia - but there was a film community there because Virginia is a commonwealth, so it's a right-to-work work state, so SAG productions could come to Virginia and use both union and non-union actors. So it was like a path, you know, certain productions would come there for that reason because it would open up the financing.

And so, from a very young age, I was professionally acting, but I always, as a child and up through high school, knew that I was never going to do this with my life because that was a ridiculous path that was not…it was going to be a struggle and no way was I going to have that path. I was going to have a real job when I grew up.

I went to a performing arts high school, so it was something I really loved, but I also just, I thought I was going become a psychologist, but I always had dreamed of going to NYU. And so I had this like, one, I auditioned to go to NYU, and then everything else, I was applying to schools to be a psychologist. This was like this one off. If I get into NYU, then I'll go!

And then I got in and I couldn't afford to go because I was paying, putting myself through college. So, I did not end up going to NYU. I went to University of Virginia, and that was going to be my path. I was going to be a psychologist.

And my senior year of high school I had a playwriting class that had to write a full-length play my senior year, second semester when I really just wanted to be going to the beach. And, I'm one of those people that even if I don't want to be doing something, I'm, especially then, a bit of a perfectionist. And so, I'm going to do it well if I have to do it.

So I wrote this play that I ended up submitting to like a young playwrights festival, and it won. And so, my senior year between high school and going into college, to become a psychologist. I had the opportunity to go away to this amazing program in Richmond, Virginia, where Alexandra and I just were a month ago, where we had our film screen in that city. And it was so exciting to be there, kind of full circle.

And the experience of seeing my play performed on this stage, you know, professional Equity actors in this huge theater - it was like a thousand-seat theater; I mean, we didn't fill it, but it just was amazing. And it was sort of an out-of-body experience. And I just, I knew sitting there watching my play that I, I would be a fool to do anything else with my life.

And so that was like this eureka moment that set me on my path to then pursue this. And so, I ended up pursuing a theater degree, and then went to a conservatory after that in New York and started kind of creating my own projects in my early 20s, and met Alexandra in a female filmmaking alliance in New York.

And we were both multi-hyphenates, and we just meshed, and so we thought, let's work on something together. And that was how Unpacking came to be.

[00:07:57] Jason Rudman: Awesome. You know, so I'm going to say eureka equals More Elephant. [Oh, great] Because it was about, right, the Eureka moment is one of many More Elephant moments I'm sure each of you would share collectively and together about how we walk towards what we were supposed to be doing. Even when sometimes, right, like you were like, I'm going to be a psychologist. Which I'm sure actually plays into, I'm sure there's a connection to, we're going to get into Unpacking, right?

[00:08:28] Michal: Oh, being a psychologist or really just, yeah, it's all dissecting a character, you know, psyche.

[00:08:36] Jason Rudman: So, you met in a cooperative setting. And I think this is really, really important because of where we started, right?

If we think about the underrepresentation of women, the stats speak for themselves, right? There's a lack of diversity and inclusion in the film industry. There's a lack of representation and visibility of stories about women, let alone stories written by women for women. There's a lack of work life balance and support in terms of the, the life that's outside of the filmmaker's life.

So, we've got all of those lacks of. [Yeah] and then you meet in this cooperative setup; it's not a traditional filmmaking model.

So I'd love to go there next. for the More Elephant audience, what is the cooperative setup? And what benefits does that provide or has provided for you as women filmmakers?

[00:09:39] Alexandra: So, we met in this sort of collective setting that was not the collective we ended up forming to make our film.

And it was so important because, I'd also say, I had a similar like in my early 20s after acting in a few films, a similar eureka moment just having only worked with male directors and men in leadership positions and having just gotten like a deep observer of human nature and behavior. [I] had so many instances where I was like wow, this is terrible leadership, and there's like such a lack of communication. There's such a lack of understanding how this person is feeling, and…

[00:10:21] Jason Rudman: A lack of empathy.

[00:10:22] Alexandra: … a lack of empathy, a lack of empathy. And that, to me, is like such a key part of being a director because, essentially, you're managing all these different egos to make the best collaboration. And you want everyone to be at their best and be bringing their best.

If you're undermining them or squashing them down or shaming them or embarrassing them or pushing them, whatever there's, I was just seeing so many people not taking responsibility for the leadership that this role actually is.

And, I felt very lucky to get into this one of the programmers that had programmed a film I acted in, ran this female director collaborative where Michal and I met, and the structure was a monthly dinner party. And we'd meet at somebody's house, we're in little apartments in New York, and there would be a topic and then we'd all get a chance to share the projects we were working on. We'd all discuss the topic of the night. So, it would be like sound in film, or like how to get through post-production and how to find grants. And then we'd end the night with an ask and, and the group would just pour out resources to each other.

It was such a beautiful environment of like Oh, I have a sound person to recommend to you; Oh, I have a location that I can recommend to you; Oh, I can help show you how to set yourself up on these casting websites so you can manage that yourself. Because everybody in that room, I think, had probably been on so many sets that were so dominated by men, and not to say there aren’t wonderful men working in the industry too, but there is a distinct difference when there is more gender equity on sets in the tone.

[00:12:06] Michal: And that was really empowering for all of us.

[00:12:09] Alexandra: And to say like, no competition, there's room for all of us. Let's share our resources. [I love that.] Let's all get in the room. Let's all start showing up at the table. It was not like this job's for me or for you. It was like, we should all be working because we're all talented.

[00:12:25] Michal: Like all boats rise.

[00:12:26] Jason Rudman: Yeah, you, you've just grounded that. So, I think really important. Let's take a step back and thank you for cleaning me up. So, you met in a cooperative setup before you decided to build your own corporate setup, but that experience informed how you went about creating that setup for Unpacking.

And what I appreciate about what you just described is there is an element, and I think it's also true in business, it's not too dissimilar, in the world at large, you just described moving from a very transactional, competitive environment, to a, Michal, I think you said it, “all boats rise, we're in this together,” and this is built on empathy, and a shared understanding that if one of us wins, we all win. [Exactly.] And I think that that is, again, why I love this conversation, is because this is one of many conversations we've had where that, to me, is what the world needs more of.

[00:13:35] Michal: Yeah, because it's a philosophy that's not just for us. It's for everybody. And it's a philosophy that the world needs that we're seeing, you know, this postcolonial era that we're living through where there's all this division.

But really, we have to all figure out how we're all going to rise together. And that is the only way we're going to get through climate change for, you know, way bigger things than just the film industry. It is a way looking at the world. And I think that's what Alexandra, in a very tiny way, we both tried to do in creating this collective then went to Bali and made this movie.

[00:14:10] Jason Rudman: Perfect segway, and I don't want to lose sight of, you said, not underestimating the power of the idea and the change that it can have. Because I also think that we trick ourselves sometimes into thinking that for the idea to be worthy and the structure to be impactful, change has to be this colossal, monumental; if I'm not impacting millions of people at a time, I'm not, I'm not doing it right.

And I think what you're going to explain to us is, that this had a profound impact on both of you individually, and it has a profound impact on the audience that views this when they understand that the story of Unpacking is not just about what you see on the screen, it's how the movie got made and how purposeful you were about the choices that you  actually made in order to bring the story to life.

[00:15:07] Michal: Yep. That's true.

[00:15:09] Alexandra: I definitely believe that.

[00:15:12] Jason Rudman: All right. The Jason Rudman top line synopsis of Unpacking is six women, Bali, a crazy guru. What could possibly go wrong?

However let's take a step back. So, you formed the cooperative. Talk us through how you went about that. What was important to you in terms of how you both showed up and what it was that you crafted before you even said, “Hey, we're now going to go to Bali and make this movie.”

[00:15:39] Michal: So, we both had other projects that we were trying to get off the ground. And you know, essentially, when you're trying to make a film or a TV show or anything, it's, you know, the money is what's going to greenlight it, right. Or a name attachment, which then brings money, but it's, let's, it's the same thing, you know, it's the money.

We kept on kind of hitting roadblocks with our own projects. And so, this felt like a way to do something another way. We wrote an email to 40 friends and colleagues that we knew in various degrees. We might know [them] very well, like some of those people were like our closest friends. And some of them were people that we knew from a theater group in LA or and had only maybe talked to a few times, but we're respected their work or any number of things. Do you want to interject?

[00:16:26] Alexandra: Yeah, my interjection is the one caveat, because it was quite a diverse group, was that they had to have an adventurous spirit and we had to, like, think that they no people that would, like, intentionally create drama or be antagonistic. That they would be, like, good collaborators, people we had collaborated with in some form or another and had had, like, an easy, good time collaborating with.

[00:16:48] Jason Rudman: So, not looking for the antagonist.

[00:16:49] Michal: Yeah, well, yeah, it's like getting away from ego, right? You know, how can we make a shared project where everyone's in it to win it and they're not, bringing their own egos to it? And they're talented, you know, in some capacity. So, we sent this to 40 friends and colleagues, like, you know, all like across the board in terms of representation. And 15 people came back and said yes. And then 12 ended up going.

But who ended up going? And you could say what you wanted to do. So, if you were an actor, if you wanted to act, you couldn't just act. You had to also have a crew role. You had to pay your own way to go, so we would like group-fund this. This was a collective, group-owned project that everyone could say what they wanted to do and if you were an actor, you also had to do some other role. And so, there were about six women that signed on to act - and they were all women. Like, no men signed up to act. And they were all white.

So, we were like, oh, okay, well, what does this look like? This isn't the best. There is diversity still with telling female stories, you know.And so, we thought, this is a wellness retreat; that's what the story of this is, in the storyline. So, we started writing for the people that signed on. And that's how we crafted the story that we were going to tell when we went to Bali.

[00:18:07] Jason Rudman: So, I love this because, again, the beauty of now, I'm going to ask you a question that  I should have probably asked beforehand.

So, the synopsis of Unpacking, I described it as, you know, I jumped the gun a little - six women, Bali, an interesting guru. What could possibly go wrong? Would you give the audience a little bit more meat in terms of what you were attempting to curate with the Unpacking story?

[00:18:35] Alexandra: Sure. I will say it really was Michal, her husband, Joseph, and I wrote this, but there was also room for improv. And because of the nature of how quickly we needed to film this and that we would see no locations in advance, we really wanted our actors to develop characters that were ‘close to the bone,’ that they could play very well and very authentically.

And we gave each of our actors the opportunity to come to us with a topic that they wanted to explore in their character. So, I'd say that also like gave a lot of strength to our storytelling because it's things you might not necessarily see space held for: divorce, infertility, your child leaving the house and having to sort of reexamine your life and who you are in that aftermath.

These are such common stories, but they might not have the like, dramatic flair on the surface that gets them told often. But they're important stories to tell. So, I think we are so lucky in letting our collaborators bring topics to the table that were important to each of them, that then we got to sort of enmesh together into a wider range of ‘everyone's having their own experience, and yet there is a collective experience.’

And the collective experiences, when you get vulnerable in a group, we have so few spaces to do that in our society these days, and it's really powerful, and it's really invaluable. There's so much in our world of social media and just designed to divide and isolate us. And sort of not spark these conversations and connections.

And that was also the really exciting part of the retreat concept, which is like what happens when you get a group of people who are lonely and isolated but are seeking out connection and guidance and wanting to break through to another level and break out of their habits and hopefully find some friendships.

And that in that format too, it's like commodification of friendship, like pay-to-play. There's, there's just layers and layers that we got to play with in there.

[00:21:07] Jason Rudman: Michal, I have to believe, at some point, your desire to be a psychologist when you left…I can't help but go back there and say, Michal, I think you might've been able to do both the thing that you signed up to do because you said that's what I thought I was going to do. And then, you know, on some level, making Unpacking is, is a marriage of those two things  that brings them together.

[00:21:29] Michal: Absolutely. I mean, I do think that about writing and acting, if you're really getting to the heart of the matter, when you're looking at a character, it's always what motivates this person? What drives them? What do they want in life? What are their fears? What are their desires? These are all the things that make up a juicy character.

[00:21:46] Jason Rudman: I think there's an important point. You talked about how you found the cast. You sent 40 contacts to diverse people that were one or two degrees of separation, that on some level you thought, they'll be game for [this] here's a rough outline of what we're trying to do.

Can you talk a little bit then, Alexandra, you mentioned that some of the power in what you created is the power in who signed up, the representation of who signed up. Michal, you, and I talked about previously about the movie is not all the size Twos that are, you know, cookie-cutter, my word. So, it's not a disparaging comment, but the six women are diverse within themselves. And I think that that is incredibly important.

Alexandra, it gets to where you were going, which is the stories that we have within us are not homogeneous. They are varied. They're rich. We need to be showing divorce because that's a lived experience for so many people.

Would you talk a little bit about the representation of who signed up? Not Joan is, you know, five foot eight and, you know, and lives in Ohio, but more importantly, what you got and how that fueled the creative expression within the context of Unpacking.

[00:23:08] Michal: I mean, one thing that I think was in this landscape we're exploring and thinking about how much representation matters, you know? And so I think for the whole arc of filmmaking, we had a hundred years or however long, you know, filmmaking has been an art form, it has largely been white people on screen. And so I definitely believe in, you know, I love the way that it's going now with diversity and, and it's so important because representation does matter so much.

But within that, the people that did sign on to do this experiment were all white women. So there, that felt like, in some ways, like a handicap, I think. But we also thought, well, this is an opportunity to tell a certain type of story which does actually happen so much in the world.

And,wellness culture is largely still white women.  Wellness is a privilege, right? Like, we can't work on ourselves and grow, you know, our hearts and,  think about what we want and how we're going to be healthier if we don't have our basic needs met. And so much, you know, of the wellness industry still is white, and I, I look forward to that shifting, but it felt like a place to put a lens.

But then within that, there was a lot of diversity within the bodies and, you know, the kind of the types of people that we shot with. And, we also brought in more diversity;  there's two Indonesian actors in the film. I have a friend who is Indonesian, so we asked him to come on board to be a part of this project. And then, he also brought a colleague of his, who rounded out our cast.

But I do think that so often with Hollywood, you do see these kind of perfect people, and I think there's this, for whatever reason, there's this it's still so much the norm where people are this sort of perfect size. And that's not the world we live in, like, people are all kinds of different sizes and shapes, and some people are more able-bodied than others, and, so it's so important to see that on film. To not just feel like, you know, movies are made of perfect looking people.

We have a, a scene in the film where everyone's in a bathing suit, and we really wanted that to be, like, non-serialized,these are all just women together, in their bodies. And it's a big compliment that I got from a friend of mine who's like a Zoomer. She's in her mid-twenties. And she said it was the first time she'd ever seen a film where she didn't feel like the women were being sexualize on screen.

Like, what? Your first time seeing a movie where that's not the case? Ugh. That's horrifying that that's the norm, but also good for us for actually just in who we are as people, Alexandra and I were like, this is the world we want to show, you know?

[00:25:59] Jason Rudman: I feel that's connected to, we haven't used this term yet,  there is a reality TV-type lens, clean me up if, if you think otherwise.

I think what you're describing is in the recent past, certainly in television, right?, with reality television, you have seen a much more realistic view - good, bad or otherwise – in how people show up. I think what you're, what you're saying is that what was really important to you in this moment with the film, notwithstanding that you might have wanted a more diverse ‘here's what you see cast,’ but you got within the cast a much, a true representation of what women in America look like and what they're going through and the challenges that they face and what it means to live life on life's terms.

This would have been curated potentially very differently if it were not for the both of you being very true to what you wanted this movie to be, which is again creating and telling stories for and about women.  So that that's for me as I listen to that, that reality TV-esque lens of creating a cast that's real, and approachable, and as you had said, I can see myself in that person, or I know somebody that's like that.

Whereas if you're, you know, airbrushed and perfect, most of us don't interact with those people daily.

[00:27:42] Alexandra: That's so true and so important. And it's like just subtly corrosive to so many women in our culture and still does not get talked about enough. The image pressure that if you want to be at the table, you have to look a certain way.

And that really does not get put on male actors or creators in the same way. Not to say there are no physical pressures with them, too, but there's just a much wider spectrum that you see on a more regular basis.

[00:28:17] Michal: And age-wise, you know, like in their fifties, sixties paired with a woman in their thirties. And  I mean, they're never the same, so rarely the same age, you know, like the couple.

[00:28:27] Jason Rudman: Yes. And again, so we've talked about what is,  within the movie, and I'm going to ask you to talk a little bit about the revelations of the movie and the interaction and what it taught you, not only as filmmakers but also as women. I think it's also important to clarify that the representation that we've talked about that was within the movie was also behind the scenes in the movie as well. And that was also incredibly important to you.  I know you had said that the actors had to be willing to do something else. Were there additional people that you brought that were just behind the scenes? Or was it essentially, “Hey, we've got this core group of eight people, and these eight people are going to do everything, whether they're on the screen or they've got a job behind the screen.”

[00:29:11] Michal: No, there were definitely people that just sat in crew or key creative positions. It was like half and half,  I mean, most people didn't have the luxury of just wearing one hat, but there were people whose main job was like our cinematographer. We brought people into beyond who signed on.

We brought on a cinematographer. We brought on a sound woman. We brought on a local fixer, who was also our transportation, and you see him briefly in the film.  So, when there's the scene between Ruby and Charlotte, our two characters, who are having like a car fight early on in the film, and there's a driver. So that driver, I had met him the year before we shot this in Bali. And so, we made him a part of the collective too. We had reached out to him because we knew he's just an incredible person. And we wanted him to be like, be our, you know, essentially be a part of this. So, there were people who definitely just sat in the crew or key creative position.

[00:30:06] Alexandra: It was so important to us to have those though. Our cinematographer and our sound person, as you're saying, those are still like, so rare to have women in those roles, and our production designer and we really had like two men.

[00:30:20] Michal: In our group, three men, if you count Ghandi who played Happy. The two Indonesian actors, we didn't ask them to do crew. We felt like, you know, we asked them to join the project, and so they just sat in the space of being actors. And producers by default, because they're part of the collective, you know?

[00:30:42] Jason Rudman:  I think this gets to this is how we make a more representative film, because the lived experience of who's in front of the camera and who's behind the camera, the tapestry of what you've described,  I don't walk in those shoes every day.  How could I be authentically true to the experience of the story that you're doing if it's not my lived experience,

I think the beauty of the environment that we find ourselves in, notwithstanding the data telling us that we have to do more to get more representation, is that there are avenues, however challenging, to get a story like Unpacking out for people to see and to inspire other filmmakers to go chase their dream, right? And bring their story to life, whatever that one is.

What did making the movie teach you or highlight for you from both a filmmaking perspective and the approach that you had?  What were the aha moments there? And then separately, as women, what did the making of the movie either highlight for you, teach you that you hadn't realized that you, you needed that lesson, or indeed reaffirmed?

[00:32:09] Alexandra: I think as a filmmaker, I learned the importance of trusting the process [and] that you do not have all the answers in the beginning, and you need to keep going and solve as you go and learn as you go.

You know, neither one of us went to film school. We were very much learning a lot as we were going, and just it was a process of trusting myself, trusting the process, trusting that I had a collaborator that was committed to seeing it through with me, and we could sort of take turns taking the energetic reins of what that meant to push it forward to the next steps. For my own personal, the next time I do this, I will plan out [the] post-process in a very different way than we did. I think that's my biggest takeaway when I'm thinking of setting up the next project.

For me, as a woman, I would say, and post has had a lot to do with this, it's been a long journey of owning and acknowledging that I like being in a leadership position, and I think I can be really good in a leadership position. And, that I do not embody a lot of traditional characteristics of that role, and it doesn't  have to undermine me in that role.

Like I am not loud. I don't like being aggressive. I don't like having to fight for my choice to be had or made. And this is maybe like, in general in life, if I want to feel respected and I want to offer respect, and I want it to be conversations and dialogues I think I've just really had to give myself like a deep green light. That it's okay for me, and sort of all aspects of my life, to seek people and collaborators where I can speak with a gentle voice and be heard from the beginning.

[00:34:20] Jason Rudman: I love it. I mean, I love that there is diversity, even within how we show up, and all forms of that are valid. There is space for you, Alexandra, in this field, being exactly who you are. So don't change. [Yeah.]

I feel that that is such a powerful learning, especially in the industry and I keep coming back to the stats that say, you know, in order for me to succeed, well then don't I have to be like them? And I think what this experience, if I just play back your tape, said to you, is no, I don't. There are enough people out there that will respect who I am, how I show up and want to work with me on meaningful projects that effectively tell stories that I want to tell.

That's so powerful. So powerful. So powerful.

[00:35:23] Alexandra: And in the like, state of the stories I want to tell too, like owning that. There's absolutely space and desire for the stories that I want to tell, and they do not need to look like all the stories that I'm seeing on my screen necessarily get programmed.

Beause I can't tell you how often I turn on one of my streamers and I'm like, I don't want to watch any of these things. None of these people feel like people I know or see in my very diverse, eclectic day-to-day life. And I'm like, where are the stories about the people, the humanity that I'm living in?

[00:35:57] Jason Rudman: Understood. Understood. Michal, for you, from a filmmaker perspective and then  from a personal perspective, how would you answer the question of what it's taught you, what you've learned, what it's reaffirmed?

[00:36:09] Michal: So, I've learned so many things as a result of making this movie, but one thing that comes to mind and that I think is really amazing is how much  the story can be shaped in the editing.

We spent, we shot this film in 13 days, and then we edited it for several years. And you know, that was on different coasts, working full-time jobs, like, you know, there was, COVID, I had a number of health things that happened to me. So it wasn't like, two years straight or anything, but the editing process was a lot longer.

But I will say that,  the film that  we had in our first cut versus the film that we had in our last cut were such different films it's amazing what you can do in the editing process. And so, you know, it's better if you can, if you can fix it in prep and have it be shot perfectly and know exactly what you're going to do. But there are also all these really happy surprises and gifts that you can find in the editing process. And it can be this whole artful thing.

And the story really emerged out of the footage we had because we did not have the luxury of reshooting. We couldn't go back to Bali. It was a pandemic, you know…

[00:37:30] Jason Rudman: Just a little pandemic. I love how you dropped that in. Pandemic.

[00:37:38] Michal: And, you know,  highlighting certain aspects of each; it's an ensemble, so we had the opportunity to highlight all these different women's stories. We had, like, maybe 250 hours of footage that we carved into an 81-minute movie. But how do you chisel that away? Andwhat gets highlighted and what gets on the floor  in the editing process and what story emerges out of the gifts that you're given in these 13 days.

And that was really cool and really exciting. And I, I like that aspect of it. I like, it's like a puzzle. Putting that together is something I very much enjoy. And I, I think I realized that , I'm good at that. You know, that, that aspect of putting things together, like how something fits.

[00:38:20] Jason Rudman: Did you know you were good at it going in or was it through this process that it reaffirmed Was it an aha moment? Was it…

[00:38:28] Michal: I mean, it was honestly, this, I have never directed a film before, and I just was like, I jumped into directing a feature, and I mean, quite honestly, I didn't necessarily want to direct this.

Alexandra really, like, she pulled me into doing this, and I don't regret any of it. It was an amazing journey, but I think I lean a little bit more towards the acting, writing, producing side of things. Being a director was a stretch for me, but it was an amazing journey, and I'm very good at it. But it's not like necessarily where I want to sit all the time.

So I think for like the life of myself as a creative, it was an amazing journey, you know? So as a filmmaker, I guess I would also say that it made me feel very invincible. So, I went through cancer twice in making this film. I was diagnosed with cancer three weeks before we went to shoot, and that's - spoiler alert! spoiler alert! - if you're listening, don't listen more if you haven't seen the movie. I was diagnosed with cancer three weeks before we went to shoot, and so we thought, this is such, I thought this is such an elephant in the room.

[00:39:37] Jason Rudman: For those of you listening, I did not pay for that line. I just want to say, I did not pay for that line.

[00:39:45] Michal: Because of this More Elephant, I will, I want to bring this to the story.

Like, Charlotte is pregnant, and she already has, that's the secret she's keeping from her sister, but let's just add that she also has cancer, right? And I didn't want to be carrying around that truth within myself as a director and then having to split focus as an actor and pretend that wasn't happening to me.

I am very much the sort of person that wears, I don't have a good mask,  I think I'm a good actor because I don't have a mask and so  I don't have the luxury of just kind of turning off my emotions or, you know, like they, they come and so I just, I wanted to sit in that space where like I'm going through this hard thing. I want to put a lens on this and, and add this to the dimension of the character.

Going through something so, you know, major going through cancer, and then also how it came back in post, and it was actually ended up being benign. But it was like a growth on my heart, so I had a second surgery when we were in post-production and, you know, that those were big. And in the midst of a pandemic, those were major life things I went through.

I think making a movie is hard and then going through cancer is hard, and I think it just, I did both of them and I came out the other side, and it really just reminded me how powerful I am and how not to be afraid of like little things. I still get nervous sometimes or think, you know, I'm, I'm human, but  I'm like, you know, way braver than I was before I started this process because it's all just like...what's there to lose?

[00:41:2] Alexandra: Exactly.

[00:41:13] Jason Rudman: What can you throw at me that I have not already handled?

[00:41:17] Michal: I've already done it, you know?

[00:41:19] Jason Rudman: So, for both of you, there's power in how you describe [and] the reason I asked the question, not only within the filmmaking process, again, for those of you listening, we've not talked about this part of it before. So that's a revelation for me.

And just sitting in the moment and listening, there are three words for both of you that come to bear, which I think are incredibly important for everybody, particularly important, I think, for women. And that is courage, resilience, and bravery, which I think you also started with invincibility, so I'll add a fourth, which is the invincibility of that. And just carrying that armor with us into whatever it is that we do next gives us a leg up on our ability to conceive, believe, and achieve anything.

So, I really, really think that that is just such a good outcome that you shared, both individually in terms of what this experience taught you as a filmmaker and as a woman navigating this world.

And I know you've been on the film circuit as well. What's your hope for what people would take? And then how have people responded as you've taken this movie on the circuit?

[00:42:45] Alexandra: I think we hoped that people who maybe did not feel seen might see themselves in some of our stories and characters in a way they hadn't been able to experience often in our media. We hoped it would raise questions that when you enter these situations and context, you think about, why am I doing this? And what's my reason for being here?

And especially in the wellness tourism world, why do I feel the need to travel halfway around the world? Am I engaging with the local culture? And what would that look like? Raising the question of privilege and asking our audience, in subtle ways, to sit with that and chew on that and the commodification of community and yeah, a lot of little questions we were hoping to raise.

And I'd say that's felt, from our audience feedback, it feels like we've done that.  The feedback's been amazingly warm and positive. I think our movie is about a lot of people who are trying to figure out what it means to be a good person or a better version of themselves, and maybe they're failing, but at least they're really trying. And there's been a real appreciation for that in the audiences - you don't feel like weighed down at the end of our movie, you feel sort of lifted up, and a little bit hopeful.

And yeah, I mean, it just has depended on the audience.  Like no one's had quite the same reaction, and different people connect to different characters, and we'll get like, “Oh my gosh, I love Jackie so much, like I really related to this humor or that was my Mom's story.”

We had this older gentleman in one of our first audiences. It was a really small town we screened in, and he like ran into me on the street and he's like, you know, sometimes my wife - I wake up and my wife isn't in bed and it's because I snore.

I woke up, and she wasn't in bed, and I, I sat down at breakfast. I was like, I'm so sorry. I must've been snoring. And she was like, no, I just saw my story in that movie, and it unsettled me so much because I've never seen it outside of myself. And she had, you know, a story of divorce and she's like, I just couldn't sleep. And I just didn't want to keep you awake.

So, he's like, I just want to tell you how much, you know, and this, this is a woman like in her seventies. So, it was like, these small audience interactions have really meant the world to us. We're not expecting our movie to reach everyone. We're not expecting everyone to love our movie, but it really has landed authentically and with heart to the people we've had the chance to share it with so far. And that has been deeply satisfying in our creative cycle. You don't make a movie to hold on to yourself. You make it to put out in the world that lives its own life.

[00:45:49] Michal: So, I would echo everything that Alexandra just said, but also add that I think the film, on some level, is also dealing with the idea of judgment. And you know, we're living in a very divided. world, right? People have different versions of reality in the world we live in. And that's, like, just a wild thing, right? And how do we reach community in this very divided world?

And I think that our film is in some ways highlighting the difference between cancel culture versus, like, calling out versus calling in. And how can we begin to move forward, in community, when we see something we don't like or we see something that could be better, you know, from our own perspective and approaching someone that has a different perspective with kindness, with,a way of having a conversation rather than shaming someone into like, it has to be this way.

[00:46:43] Alexandra: Which then shuts them down and creates more division. And doesn't get us anywhere.

[00:46:48] Jason Rudman: And we, and I, and I think we would, the three of us would agree that that is where we find ourselves right now. As an environment, it's so divisive and two, three-sided, where everybody is backed into their corner and believing that whatever they view is the right view.

[00:47:04] Michal: Right, and I mean if there's an antagonist in the film, it's,  the character of Ina, who is  you know, the only person that's actually speaking truth to justice. In a lot of ways, she's not just concerned with herself, she's actually concerned with an activist approach to looking out to how things need to shift.

That's super important, but what is the messaging of how we convey that? Can it be heard if we are just yelling at the people that are not meeting our expectations and are making them feel like they're not on the same plane as us because that's not, it's just like, do I want to be right or do I want to be happy? You know, is there a world in which I can move forward and help elicit change in the midst and let my ego go. In that process.

[00:47:45] Jason Rudman: I'm struck by the adage ‘two opposing points of view can be held and be right at the same time.’ [That's right.] And we, the challenge we have, and it seems, what this experience has informed or reaffirmed is that we have got to be able to create space to have that conversation in an empathetic, kind, reasonable way.

Such that, I may not change your point of view, but again, from a More Elephant perspective, I have started by saying less and listening more. And within that, I learn, and within that, I end up ultimately living better for the experience.

 That's the More Elephant way, right? Our tagline is listen, learn, live better. Both of you could not have prescribed a better  footnote for what the experience of making this movie has not only reaffirmed for you, but I think, and thank you for sharing it with myself and the audience, but how so many of us yearn to be able to do that in the world.

And I think that in the movie that you've made is a note to all of us, to say that we've got to keep pushing forward. We've got to keep doing that. We've got to keep telling. We've got to keep creating. Women have got to be able to create and tell stories for and about women.

We've got to be able to talk about these issues in the public square without fear of cancel culture or being called out. We've got to, we've got to call people in, Michal, to your point, and have these conversations.

And Alexandra, I think that's how great filmmaking tells the stories of our lives and resonates with people.

I think you had said, Alexandra, right, the baseline of what you and Michal have created is essentially, we made a movie to be seen and for other people to be seen, because those movies are not being made. And if we don't do it, who's going to do it?

So, thank you for as with many of these conversations, there may be a part two because I think we just scratched the surface. What we wanted to do is have a conversation about representation through the lens of women filmmakers, where there is underrepresentation, there's a lack of storytelling, and to your point, if I, if you can't bring your lived experience to the screen, then that story is not going to be told. That's where we started.

But we ended with a starting to veer down a conversation about what it tells us about the world that we live in and how, through the power of filmmaking, we can create a different outcome. So my sense is that there's a conversation that we could have, not as Michal and Alexandra as filmmakers with Jason Rudman, but just three human beings talking about you know, talking about the world and how we create , a better lived experience for all.

[00:50:54] Alexandra: I was just going say, Michal and I like deeply embrace that. We think it's like, it's a, it's again, it's a responsibility. And it's a total gift to get to tell stories in this way. And it's a weight that we don't take lightly. [Yeah.]

And we really think about what is the messaging we're trying to put out into the world? And there's so much messaging about elevating psychopaths and terrible dynamics and relationships. And that is not what we want to be a part of creating. We really value intentional messaging because media sets culture and that that is a lot of power.

[00:51:32] Michal: Yeah, I want to tell the kind of stories that can help shift consciousness on some level for the good, you know, because our world is, it's not a good place.

So, you know, movies and TV shows are our modern day myths, and they can help shape our world. They are very powerful tools. And, how are we using them?

[00:51:51] Jason Rudman: I think they do help shape our world, right? So what is next for both of you?

[00:52:00] Michal: We're working on another project together. We have a film that we're writing with Joseph, our third writer, who's also my husband. So, the three of us are in the writing stage of that. And, then we both have other personal projects that we're working on as well.

[00:52:15] Jason Rudman: Excellent. Well, we would love to, as those come to fruition, I want to be able to invite you back because it's going to be another rich conversation and I want to be able to share with the audience over time what you're doing. So that's an invite.

How do people keep track of each of you in the meantime? How do people get in touch if they want to talk more about this? How do they learn more about the movie Unpacking? How do they learn more about Michal and Alexandra?

[00:52:41] Michal: People can always contact me through my website. It's micahlsinnott.com. It's M-I-C-H-A-L-S-I-N-N-O-T-T.com, or that's like my name across all social media, so I'm pretty easy to find if you could figure out how to spell my name.

[00:52:55] Jason Rudman: We will do that for the audience, right? Yes. We'll make sure in the transcript it's very, very clear.

[00:53:02] Michal: Or you can follow us for our film on unpackingmovie.com or @unpackingmovie on Instagram.

[00:53:09] Alexandra: I'd say, yeah, that's where we're putting most of our updates. We have a newsletter you can sign up for on our website, but we post any screenings or big, big news on Instagram as well.

I also am @xanclayton, starting at the X in Alexandra. And also a website, alexandraclayton. com, but probably for the more steady updates, Instagram and that little bio handle on Instagram will link you to all the other stuff you want or need to find.

[00:53:39] Jason Rudman: Well, we'll make sure that we showcase all of that. We'll make sure that we give easy access to the newsletter so people can learn more about the movie. Thank you.

What an amazing conversation. What an amazing, what an amazing journey. And I come back to again, Michal and Alexandra, where you started talking about what it is reaffirmed for you, which is bravery, you know, vulnerability, but ultimately, authentically being who you are and bringing that to the screen.

[00:54:13] Alexandra: Thank you. This was so lovely, Jason. Thank you so much.

[00:54:18] Michal: You're a great leader.

[00:54:19] Alexandra: Yeah.

[00:54:20] Jason Rudman: Oh, well, thank you because you made it easy. And so, so really, really appreciate it. Thank you for your time.

[00:54:27] Michal: Thank you.

More Elephant Outro