Representing For Representation

More Elephant Intro

[00:00:33] Jason Rudman: Welcome to the latest More Elephant podcast. Thought leadership for today's world. Where I get the privilege of talking with change makers, idea makers, and I think people ultimately, as I'm coming to learn, just living their best life.

I'm excited today to talk with Nikki Darden. Nikki and I have known each other for, I was looking it up, probably about 20 years, 20 plus years. And we started knowing each other when we were 12, I like to say, because we both look fantastic. To describe Nikki in her current role, I had to look it up because you know, it's not just one title, there's four titles.

I'm going to welcome you and then I'm going to ask you to explain what all of that means for everybody that's listening. Okay, so you at Citi are, if I have this correct, the head of global marketing integration, DEI brand strategy, Purpose marketing and internal brand engagement.

[00:01:33] Nikki Darden: Yes.

[00:01:34] Jason Rudman: So that's a whole lot.

[00:01:34] Nikki Darden: It's a whole lot.

[00:01:36] Jason Rudman: For the uninitiated, and I'm going to count myself in the uninitiated, because I've got questions on, well, what does purpose marketing mean? What does that mean you do day to day?

[00:01:44] Nikki Darden: Yeah. So first, thank you, Jason, for having me. It's always great to see you and talk to you.

I do now have a more cohesive title that we've made up. It's called Brand Engagement and Integration. My role is comprised of those four different roles. And I'll briefly tell you what each of them sort of covers.

So, the first I think you mentioned was Global Marketing Integration. This is really around how Citi optimizes the brand around the world. We have a physical presence and teams who are responsible for the brand in 95 countries around the world. This isn't about brand standards and ensuring that, you know, people are using the right colors and logo and such. That's another team. We do that, but that's not my team. We're really around optimizing.

So, if we find out through our relationships around the world that there's an initiative in Mexico, as an example, that is quite similar to something that's happening in Canada. Oh, and by the way, they just did something similar or maybe a year ago in Hong Kong.

My team is here to say, all right, how can we bring all of these parts together so that we have one cohesive approach, one way of talking about this. One way of going to market with this, etc, [while] still allowing for localization, of course, because we want to be local and authentic to the market where we are. But we also don't want to reinvent the wheel.

We should be taking advantage of our size and scale. And that's really what it's about doing on the brand side. So that's global marketing integration. We can talk a little bit about me coming to Citi and leaving Citi and then coming back.

[00:03:22] Jason Rudman: One of the reasons I wanted to talk to you, More Elephant is about listening to ourselves and the environment around us. When you listen, and you're just in the moment, you say less, you listen more, and you learn about yourself. I think you learn more about what you want to do, and that ultimately leads to living better.

[00:03:38] Nikki Darden: That's right.

[00:03:39] Jason Rudman: Outcomes, right? So, there's just joy in talking to you, because I, I think over the time we're going to spend together, what I know is you're going to share a journey of finding what you love to do. I know that's part of the story and one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you, so that as an aside, we've covered one of four things! No, but 1 of 4.

[00:03:58] Nikki Darden: So that's the job I had when I first came back to Citi. I always say it's the hardest part of my job, but the one where I actually learn a lot every day and most of what I do. But that's the one where I'm constantly learning something new because we're literally dealing with people from all over the world. So that's that part.

The second thing I think you mentioned was DEI brand strategy. This is around how do we infuse diversity, equity and inclusion in what we're doing from a marketing perspective.

We think about it as Citi marketers. We also think about it in terms of our diverse consumers. And then the third way that we think about it is just as being leaders and contributors really in the marketing space.

So we do a lot of things that are not just for us, but we create public goods that can be leveraged by other companies as well, because our belief is when we infuse authenticity and inclusion into the work that we're doing every day, it helps everyone. We all are better off. So, we don't just look internally, but look externally as well as a, how do we create that strategy first for ourselves, but also think about now, how can we use this to sort of raise all votes, right? Third job, .

[00:05:12] Jason Rudman: Yeah. This is the one, this is, when I read this, Nikki, it was like purpose marketing. I, I think I know, but rarely do you see that in somebody's remit or called out as a specific part of what they, what they lead and what they do and what they…

[00:05:27] Nikki Darden: I would say it's a relatively new discipline from a marketing perspective. Right. But purpose marketing at Citi, I'll talk about, uh, and it's, it's very similar, you know, elsewhere, but it is about how are we amplifying the good that we do in the world. How are we contributing to what's happening around the world? And how do we talk about that?

So that can include DEI, that can include social finance as a bank. That's one of the things that we think about. How are we leveraging our core competencies to close the racial wealth gap? help end poverty? help end food insecurity?

All of those things, the one that's a little bit more challenging for us. How are we improving the environment? We [Citi] do some things that aren't the best for the environment from a financing perspective, but we are working extremely hard to help our clients to transition into more clean approaches to energy.

And so, how do we talk about all of that work? And so that's what purpose marketing really is. It comes to life in a variety of ways. Largely through a lot of partnerships, where we find like-minded NGOs, nonprofits, etc., who are doing similar work to what we are attempting to do that can help us go farther and actually push us. Push us to do better because we need that too.

And so that's what purpose marketing is really about. How are we really infusing the good into what we do every day.

And it's surprising when you start focusing on it, and there's actually a ton of good. And so, the more that you talk about it, even internally, the more people realize that they can think about their work differently and have more purpose-driven aspects to it. So, it's sort of the gift that keeps on giving.

[00:07:17] Jason Rudman: We're in such a moment though, once you start championing the good that you do, you, then there's the, you know, the other side of that, which is the critique that comes with, well, but you're not doing this, you're not doing that. Why aren't you doing this? Why are you doing that?

So, I'm sure that comes as a double-edged sword, even from standing up a purpose marketing thematic and a way of thinking in the organization.

[00:07:40] Nikki Darden: For sure. I would say the critiques come from both, from two sides.

There are the critiques that make us better, which are, ‘well, that's great that you're doing that, but you should be doing more.’ And like I said, that challenges us. How can we think about really moving things forward faster, bigger, better, whatever. Tt hurts. It's painful sometimes when you're doing so much, and we know what it takes to do what we're doing, for people to push you. But that's a role in society. And I think it's a good one.

And then the other side is why are you doing that? Right. You're a bank. Why are you focused on inclusion? Like that's not your role. And so that's also an interesting place for us to be.

[00:08:23] Jason Rudman: That's where you and I both breathe, right? Because we're going to get into why representation matters and the business case for it, and why Citi Invests your energies and why you invest your energies personally in it.

So, we'll breathe through that. They could, the question of, well, why do you do it? And you're a bank and…

[00:08:40] Nikki Darden: internal brand engagement is really around, you know, how do you get people excited about being here every day? We've got well over 200,000, I think the latest number is something like 230,000 people around the globe who work for Citi, and we want them to be brand ambassadors. We want them to really believe in what we're doing. And that doesn't just happen by osmosis, right? We're doing good work. So people, you know, feel good about it. No, you need to help them to understand the work that's happening.

Like I was saying about purpose marketing. Sometimes, when you talk about these things, then people are like, first of all, this is a place I want to be. This is work that I want to find a way to contribute to. And this is a purpose that I want to figure out, how can I bring that into my everyday work?

So, whether that's through their day-to-day job or we, you know, we do a lot of, like most large companies, volunteering in communities and all those kinds of things that just sort of reinforces that through our colleague base and really makes them champions of the brand as well.

And that work also includes, you know, just in full disclosures, some culture transformation work. We're not above having looked at ourselves and saying, we kind of need to do some things a little differently. And so, partnering with our people leadership and human resources teams to think about how do we transform this culture, which is a big effort that we're undertaking right now.

We're in the midst, literally in the middle. of a culture transformation that we're working on. So how do we bring that to our colleagues and really get them bought in?

[00:10:07] Jason Rudman: I want to take, so I just take a step back, right? Cause I think some of the numbers, just to reiterate some of the numbers, when we talk about people and teams having an impact, you're impacting over 200,000 people at an organization that serves millions of customers in 95 countries throughout the world.

[00:10:25] Nikki Darden: We actually have customers in 160 countries around the world. We've got employees in 95 countries around the world.

[00:10:33] Jason Rudman: Got it. Okay. So, the amount of impact and your ability to change the way people think about, and we can pick any topic, right?

That's just, it's, it is monumental on some level. And what I love about every time I see a post from you and just when I, you know, when I watch a video or you're in a fireside chat or something is to me, my words, like there is joy and freedom in what you choose to do every day. And it emanates out of your pores. I think you would say most days, not every day, but most days, right? Most days. So many of the people that I've talked to on the podcast, right? I ask, you're in this place right now. You already mentioned, “Hey, I was at Citi, I left Citi.” I know that you dabbled with being an entrepreneur and you and I will joke, and you were like, that's not for me. I figured that out. I'm, I'm a great intrapreneur, but entrepreneurship is not for me.

So, can you, crystallize for, for our listeners, this series of More Elephant moments that got you to the way you are now and what you do and how you show up?

[00:11:45] Nikki Darden: Yeah. I started, so first listeners who can't see me, I, you know, I'm a black woman. I'm from the South. I grew up in a single parent home. I grew up below the poverty line. I did, however, come from a family of people who had at least gone to college, may not have graduated, but there was a lot of exposure, a lot of educators in my family, teachers, administrators, and the elementary, middle and high school spaces.

And so, I always understood that even though I didn't come from much, so to speak, my future was bright. And I just needed to work hard, and I could get there. Like I always grew up with that sort of understanding, whether that was true or not, I probably wasn't aware of many of the obstacles that were really in my, in my way, but I certainly had that belief.

All throughout high school and college and everything, sort of felt like, you know, I work hard. I get rewarded. I get the next thing. I'm the best. Yay!! Top of my class. It's sort of at each stage. Great. I'm awesome!!

And then I got to corporate America and my first role after college. And I remember, it's so funny because I've had a lot of these moments, I remember the day when I felt like my light was being dimmed. That I was not necessarily the person who sort of fit into this space in my natural, authentic self. And so, I started to change who I was and how I showed up. I didn't change who I was. I changed how I showed up.

And that got me so far. And it's like, okay, but I would say I was sort of going through the motions, still working hard, still achieving, but it didn't necessarily feel great. It was like, okay, great. I got a higher title now. Okay. I got a bigger check, but I, I never loved it. I never felt really good in those spaces.

And I think some of it has come with age, but some of it has come with experiences. So, I joined Citi back in 2010, and in 2012, I got an expat assignment. I was assigned to go and work for Citi in Brazil for seven months. I was there for seven months, and the change in perspective, the realization of what I did know and what I didn't know, and the fact that I was in a place where literally no one knew me. That was a transformational moment for me, both personally and professionally, where it was like I am a fish outta water anyway.

I don't speak the language. I'm showing up looking real American. I operate in a way that's quite gringo. So, it's like, all right, it doesn't matter. Like, I don't fit in anyway, so let's just go for it. I may as well be myself. And that is when I really started, just coming into professionally being who I am in the office.

‘Cause at that point I didn't have anything else to rely on. This sort of costume, this drag that I had put on for the first several years of my career, didn't work there anyway. So I'm like, well, I'll just take it off and be me. And, and that's really what happened. And I will say, as I mentioned, it happened personally as well, where it was like, you know, wow, I'm in this amazing country with this amazing culture and these amazing people, and I'm meeting locals and expats who are at the top of their game.

The way my circle from being there, that I still keep in touch with, and I'm going to see two of them this weekend separately in different places that I'm traveling to, and the things that they're doing, like, it's just really like, okay, these are people that are firing on all cylinders. And it just put me into, just such a different space. And so that was, I would say, moment number one.

So, when I came back, I went, moved into my first global role. And like I said, it was just like, this is, this is it. This is what I get - I get people, I get how to fit into different cultures because I have been doing it my whole career. How do I need to navigate this place that maybe I'm not, you know, the best, best fit for and make sure that those people feel comfortable with me and that we can build a relationship and work together. That's what I had done my entire career!

So, as I started moving into global roles, I was just able to really build on that. And it came, it was like an aha, like, this is it. Like, this is what I do!

I did that role for quite some time. It was a very hard job. And that's when I left. And that's what I left because I was just burnt out. And I, went on to entrepreneurship, which we can talk about a little bit more, uh, that was not an aha moment, except well…

The aha moment in entrepreneurship, I was like, I love building things. I love taking a seedling of an idea and making it into something. But I learned that I love doing it with infrastructure surrounding me. I love doing it with a budget. I love doing it with resources that I can tap into and experts I can tap into. And so that's what I realized - entrepreneurship might not be my thing. It's intrapreneurship where I really thrive.

And so I always like to quote Jay Z, for me, “my business was grand opening, grand closing.” And that was not a bad thing. It was just fine. I learned so much. And it's funny, like now people have conversations about AI, and I will tell them about things that I did in my business. And they're like, you were doing AI before it was cool. I was like, “Yeah, I didn't exactly know what I was doing, but yes, this is what I did.” Yes, it was AI-based, and they were like, wow. And I was like, yeah, but I hated it.

So here I am anyway. And then I came back into that global marketing integration role. The next aha moment was one that happened, you know, we had a reorg, and I was reorg’d into a new organization working for someone, quite frankly, who got it. Saw the value that I brought and was like, this person actually needs a bigger platform.

And what I had been doing was building that platform anyway. So, when I was in that global integration role, one of the first things that I saw was there was no DEI in the work that we were doing. I sort of on the side became the DEI champion for our organization. There were some culture initiatives that sort of would happen one-off here and there and then didn't have a home. Guess where they landed?

I just started, you know, just again, helping people. Let's figure out how we do this in a different way. Those people didn't report to me. And so, when I sort of found myself in the midst of this reorg, with this leader who was like, what was interesting to her were all these things that I had sort of cobbled together around my core job, because, as I always say, Citi is a big place where if you see something, say something, which I love.

And so, I had done all of these very intrapreneurial things where it was like, there's a need here. And I'm going to figure out how to fill it. Finding the person who believes in you and can see what you're trying to do and say, here, go do it. Gave me more budget, more people, all those things. And so, what you see on LinkedIn and Instagram and in my posts and everything is a product of getting that platform to be able to really amplify the work that I was already doing.

[00:19:37] Jason Rudman: So I think a couple of things, and I really identify with that, and I identify with it on a couple of levels, right?

First is, I, like you, have felt that there have been times in my career where I just didn't have a voice. I think sometimes that can be a bit of a challenge, right?

Look, I'm a white guy, like, I walk in privilege every day. However, there aren't too many gay executives, and, you know, the LGBTQI experience, as we're seeing right now, is often misunderstood, not always supported, and the work that you do is really about representation across a wide variety of avenues.

I think the other thing that I identify with, and I love this, is you saw needs, right? I think so often I talk to some people, and [they will say] “I did this work, and nobody's paying attention to it.” And we'll talk a little bit about the business value of the work, right? There's value in the work that you do, and not all things are created equal.

Value creation is important, and then when there's scarce resources, what you put your mind to and then ultimately show up and say, “Hey, well, there's a business case here’, I think is incredibly important and a learning lesson.

There have been things that I've worked on that I've been passionate about that have been outside of the realm of what I was asked to do. And sometimes I felt nobody gave a fig about it. And, and they didn't give a fig about it sometimes because it had limited value, and I, that was a lesson I learned.

And the third piece is because they didn't understand it. And I think the, the third part of your story is, and you found a champion that believed in you and believed in the work.

And I do think that at this stage of my career, I don't know if you feel the same, but at this stage of my career, part of what I'm here to do is to be a catalyst for the next generation of leaders. To live out what they see as adding value to the organization under this rubric of DE&I, and creating a much broader sense of belonging for the people. I think corporations have an opportunity and work to do to create a better sense of belonging for everybody that shows up. And if they do that, they can unlock tremendous business value. I think, you know, some of the work that you've done has proven that.

[00:21:49] Nikki Darden: That's right. Right.

[00:21:50] Jason Rudman: Let's put some color around the work. I know a few things that you've done. And so, let's talk about two things and I think they're related, right?

There is the transformation of the lenses of identity that you did with the work with Getty. And then there's also within that, I think a, a partner, if you like, in that work, which is the ‘Citi Chosen Name’ work that you've done.

Why important to you first? What is the signal about when you say, “Hey, look, I get up every day, and I love what I do. In order for me to love what I do, the work has to do these things?” And then why is that important to Citi?

There's lots of things that Citi could be putting their investment in guiding you to say, Hey, we want you to steer over here. So why are those two things as a broader body of work important to you and important to Citi?

[00:22:45] Nikki Darden: Yeah. So, I think it's interesting. Both of those bodies of work came about before they were my job. When I said this [Citi] is a place, I always say this is a place where people often remind me, no, you are a person who. So I'm like, this is a place where if you see something, say something, and people will often say, no, you are a person who, when you see something, you take it, you create it, and you know how to run with it.

So, I do realize that some of this is because of who I am and not everyone might be comfortable or motivated or have the ability to do some of the things that I've done. Because I'm always like, “Oh, yeah, there's, anybody can…” People are “Stop it. Not anybody can.”

Actually, both of them probably came around the same time. So, the Chosen Name work came about in 2019 is when I first started looking into that.

So, you may remember as a member of the community, you may remember MasterCard coming out with their True Name initiative. And so what they were attempting to do was to get their issuers to enable transgender and non-binary people to use their chosen name on their MasterCard. At the time, they had no major banks on board to do that.

And at Citi, we had, unbeknownst to me, we had sort of looked at it and said, this is really challenging. And it is because, you know, the first thing that a responsible bank is going to say is, wait a minute, what are the fraud implications of this? Not that those are insurmountable, obviously, because we did it. But that's the first sort of red flag that goes up.

And then you have to think about, is this worth the effort it's going to take to be able to do this. And I think given where we were, prioritization of other initiatives, it was like, this is probably not the right time for us to do this. I didn't know those conversations…I literally just read about this work that MasterCard was doing. And I was like, well, we should do this.

And so, I start reaching out to different parts of the organization. I find out, well, it's really challenging, etc. And I asked the question that I typically ask, which is, “okay, but what could we do?” And that's usually where I start.

I just had this conversation with someone on my team earlier today, the answer to almost everything I've ever wanted to do professionally that was not already sort of on the plan when I got it, the answer is almost always no. And if we took no for an answer, we wouldn't be here. So, you have to figure out how do you get to the yes.

And so, my starting point is, well, what could we do? And in doing that, I found a team who managed, I won't go through all the details, but I know you know this stuff, managed the online account profile. And they were like, well, what we could do is we can enable people when they log into their account online, we can display to them their chosen first name.

Great. Let's start there! And so that's what we decided to do, which is the small part of what MasterCard was trying to do. And then, as we started doing that work, I went around organization to organization, sort of explaining to them this small little thing that we were doing, but I went to them with the data, right?

I went to them with 70 percent of transgender and non-binary people go by a name other than their first name. Vast majority of them have nothing, no legal ID, identification or anything that reflects that name that aligns with their perceived, you know, the gender expression, I will say. And then there's about a third of those people who will show up with a card or an ID. or whatever.

[00:26:48] Jason Rudman: that is a mismatch, right?

[00:26:49] Nikki Darden: Right. To the person who they are giving it to, they've been faced with a service disruption, with harassment, and unfortunately, sometimes even violence. So that's what the data says from the National Transgender Study; that study is from 2015. A new one is coming out any day now. I can't wait for it, with new data. But that, that's what the data says.

And as soon as I start talking to people about that data, then they start trying to think, well, in my group, what could we do? There are a few key things here. There's the asking the question, what could we do? Leading with the data in sharing the story with other folks. And then I would say the third piece is what I like to call, stealing from the late John Lewis, ‘I make good trouble.’ And I start telling people what we're doing and I start telling MasterCard, “Hey, let me tell you about this thing I'm doing.”

And in one case, I told the CMO of MasterCard on a stage in front of my boss, at which case it's like, and she knew we were working on this thing, but the CMO of MasterCard didn't know that we were working on it. And she committed dollars right then on the spot to helping to, bring this to life. And so telling that story, grounding it in the data and asking, well, what else could we do? That's sort of how we got to it.

And if you think about why it is important to Citi – One, we are located, our retail branches in six of the biggest markets across the country. Credit card is a national business, but still really hubbed in major cities. This is where we have our most diverse populations. Transgender and non-binary people are our customers, period, full stop.

And if we have a product that has the potential to introduce service disruption, harassment, and even violence, then we have to fix that. And that is why it's important to us because these are our customers, and we need to ensure that we are delivering to them a product that serves their needs and honors who they are. And so that's why we've moved forward with that work. So that was, it's a long story.

[00:28:52] Jason Rudman: No, no, it's such a powerful, it's such a powerful story. If you think, and again, what I stay away from on this podcast is political conversations, right, because I think the divisiveness of it, that's not what we're trying to do here.

We should acknowledge that we are in an environment, I mean, you mentioned hostility, and violence to the LGBTQ community. And what I love about the story and the beauty of the arc that you just described was, I come back to things I've used - so the DVF framework: desirability, viability and feasibility.

And on its face, anybody could have argued at Citi, Nikki, not enough people! I’ll manage the service interruption, right? Because, you know, it’s 30, 000 customers, I mean, in a sea of millions of customers, the easy response, would be, it's 30, 000 customers, Nikki. It's a drop in the bucket. Yeah, we've got so many other priorities.

And I think it's the courageousness, both on yours and your team's part, and the brand to stand behind something. I mean, we've seen brand response just over the last couple of months - Target, Bud Light, right?

We live in such fractious times, and what I love about what you recognized - and all things in design go back to the customer that you're solving, listening, and solving with the customer in mind - is the painful mismatch when somebody has an ID and a card that do not align.

And that's not yours and my lived experience, right? We don't identify as trans, we don't have that issue. And dare I say, I know, I mean, I know enough about the trans community. Think about it. You know enough as an ally to think about it. So many people would not even think about that being a priority to solve. And that's why I love that story. Because even if you're impacting one person, right, you have enabled them to live better based on who they are.

[00:31:00] Nikki Darden: And let me tell you how, with the small numbers, we were sort of able to still push this through. One is we knew, because there were no major US issuers doing this with MasterCard in the US, we knew, I can tell you, we are going to get earned media for this.

So, this is reputation, this is awareness, this is brand perception. I can guarantee you that's going to happen. And of course, it did. So that was one. It was like, yes, this is a product feature, however, this is also a story. And so that was one way to justify it.

The other way to justify it. As people were like, well, this isn't a huge impact. My response was “exactly, so it's not a huge risk! We can manage this.”

People were concerned about the fraud pieces, completely cared for - the short story there, as you know, with your financial services background is what's embossed on your plastic and that signature on the back of the card is minimal in 2023, in terms of what is actually driving your fraud controls. All of that is embedded in the technology of the card and the account, not that. And so, we could manage the risk, and we're only talking about a few people. So, I think this is a good place to go.

Here's the other thing - we identified potential use cases in other markets, so,we've got markets where you've got names from, you know, of different languages and how can we leverage learnings from Chosen Name to enable other kinds of inclusion.

We're going to start with, our design target is trans people and non-binary people. There are other folks who are unable to use their chosen name, their true name, who they truly identify themselves as on their card. And so, we're able to leverage it that way. In fact, my team monitors all of the names and changes that come through. Or at least all of the exceptions. We, you know, we got some that we're like, can't do that one.

[00:33:21] Jason Rudman: We can't do it yet. We can't do it yet.

[00:33:23] Nikki Darden: Some of them we won't do.

[00:33:25] Jason Rudman: I won't do. Okay. Yeah. There's a difference between can't do and won't do. Right.

[00:33:29] Nikki Darden: Yeah. And so, so we monitor all the names, and I will tell you that a lot of it is people like me. My first name is not Nikki. I've never, you know, I'm not changing my legal name.

I, I've never had, before this, a card that says Nikki. Everybody knows me as Nikki, and then I show up and everything has a different name. And so that's, again, that's not who we designed it for, but there are lots of people who say you see me, and I can be my real, my real and true authentic self.

[00:34:02] Jason Rudman: I love that, right? That's the power of design thinking. That's right. Right? Not saying no, but saying, however. And then what you've just demonstrated there is the extendability. You've started with, a population, right, a cohort, and it has applicability in other cohorts where you can extend the brand amplification and the key note for me is Citi sees you.

We see you as you see yourself. I just think the power of that for a brand is just, that's remarkable, that's remarkable. And then I think that led to, right, the, the, again, there's, there's lots we could talk about. I think I might invite you back. We probably should have another hour.

I also know the work that you've done on the lenses of identity, right? The transformation of the lenses of identity with the Getty library. Can you, can you talk to us a little bit about that?

[00:34:51] Nikki Darden: Yeah. So, that work came about, I talked about my global integration role and one day, as also the DEI strategy lead, I was talking to a couple of different teams from different countries and different regions about DE& I and I just wanted to start the conversation about infusing more diversity and inclusion and representation in their work.

And I won't go through the details of how these conversations went, but the takeaway, which is a very real one, is that the way that we think about diversity in the U. S. is not the way that we think about diversity in Mexico, in Brazil, in Hong Kong, in London, in the UK, in keep…it going in Japan, in Nigeria, there's not a one size that fits all.

And so, our work with Getty was to say, okay, we know that we've got this opportunity to be more inclusive in our work. We know that our marketers aren't necessarily equipped with the tools that they need in order to do that, particularly outside of the U. S. And so how do we create something that's going to enable them to be able to be more inclusive and representative in their work?

We started with Getty and said, all right, this is what we're trying to do. And they were like, “Oh, not exactly what we do, but we love it. Let's figure it out.” They've been amazing partners. And we brought in another partner, Kantar. And Kantar just helped us to understand what's the landscape.

So we looked at 10 different countries and we said, okay, these are the, what we call eight lenses of identity. I don't want to forget any of them, so I might not go through all of them, but just to give a flavor, it's race and ethnicity - maybe I will go through all of them. It's race and ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender and gender identity, age, religion, body, socioeconomic status, and one that I'm forgetting.

[00:36:58] Jason Rudman: And for the win. One, Nikki, for the win!

[00:37:01] Nikki Darden: it'll come to me and an eighth one. Okay. Yeah. And we said, alright, so if we go through each of these lenses and look demographically, what does the population of a given country look like? How would we be approaching our marketing if we wanted to make sure that we were really representing the communities that surrounded us.

And so that's what Kantar helped lay the groundwork of what each of these countries look like. And we brought in some of our own data, etc. And then Getty's got images from all over the world that are tagged on their database that you're able to pull down as one of the leading stock imagery companies in the world.

And so they helped us to understand what does the imagery, the advertising look like in each of these countries. And then we looked at the gap, [and] we identified, where is there a disconnect here.

And so, I can tell you that there are a few consistent themes. The consistent themes are women in leadership are underrepresented almost universally across the world; they are quite overrepresented in traditional roles white men, overrepresented, white people, overrepresented.

[This] around the world. So as an example, white people make up less than 4 percent of the population of Singapore. I'm picking on Singapore because this stat always amazes me. They represent about 27 percent of the advertising, the images in advertising in Singapore. Fascinating.

[00:38:35] Jason Rudman: I think, I think the data in the U S right. It's again, just riffing on this, right? Right.

So over-indexed white men in an office setting. Right? When you have an ad, in the U. S., you could, you can look at the data. Over over-indexed there. Under-indexed, when you're advertising families, Black and Latin families actually are underrepresented in advertising.

Your point around women showing up just generally in much more traditional settings, when you don't see women as scientists or in technical roles, or even in the office. So, I think that to your point, that is a global phenomenon. That we have an opportunity to course-correct and address. And it ties, I think, to where we started at the beginning here around why representation is so important because if you see yourself, you can be that.

[00:39:26] Nikki Darden: That's right. And the business imperative here is the world is changing. Even if you think about our global footprint and you think about, again, I'll pick on Singapore. The data I just shared is not Citi data, this is about the market as a whole. But as you think about so many multinationals in Singapore, they are not reflecting the local community.

[00:39:50] Jason Rudman: I'm stunned at Singapore. I actually was in Singapore, and that's another conversation. I was in Singapore This is the first time I've been there. I did not have an appreciation for the melting pot, right, that is Singapore.

And then, you saying when you look at the data, the homogeneous nature of how advertising gets shown in that country is yeah, it's a fascinating problem to solve.

Yeah, so we've touched on a couple of things. What's the next frontier for you in this role? Is there anything you can share, at a high level, without giving too much away as you continue to see differently from a DE&I lens, a purpose marketing lens, a brand engagement lens, how do, how do you think about the next frontier of the works that you're doing?

[00:40:37] Nikki Darden: I think again, not to get political, but we are in a time where…

[00:40:45] Jason Rudman: However, we'll do a design-thinking, however. However…

[00:40:48] Nikki Darden: However, we are in a time where brands are being challenged, more and more again, about doing things that lots of people don't think it's their place to do.

I can point to so much of the work that we do around closing the racial wealth gap where, sure, you can say ‘that's not our place,’ but you know, what is our place closing wealth gaps, period.

And so, what we really have to do is to look at what is the role that we can and should be playing in each of these venues so that we can continue to do the work. And that's what's most critical. Our mission is to enable growth and economic progress across the board, and you can't do that in a one-size-fits-all approach. And so that is a lot of our focus right now.

How can we be thoughtful about this time that we're in right now to ensure that we continue doing the work. I'll also tell you that as we think about different financial gaps, financial inclusion, access to financial stability and wellness - that is a lot of where we are looking. And that's across the board.

I like to remind people there are wealthy, underbanked people who maybe didn't come from money but are high earners and have high income and don't know how to create generational wealth for their families. Don't know how to make sure that their economic situation doesn't change.

And so, it's looking across the spectrum as to how do we provide what people need in order to create that legacy for themselves and for their families. And so that's where a lot of the work is going to be focused. And we know the things that drive that primarily around home ownership and building businesses and all of those kinds of things. And what that looks like for each of those segments. That's the piece that we still have to figure out.

[00:42:55] Jason Rudman: Right. And so to your point that cuts across any racial line that you want, right? I think so often you know, the conversation spins down into a, it's actually these folks that I'm solely for, etc., and it's not - it's actually an egalitarian problem to solve. That's, that's number one.

I think number two, what's important is notwithstanding where you went in terms of the discourse, right? And this divergent sense that we have, not just in the United States, right? I'm a listener of the BBC, and there is discord and divergence everywhere, right? You only have to look across the pond in England and you, you see a version of it.

So, I think we're in that moment. And it is so easy, I think personally, and then also from a corporation perspective to say, well, we're not going to do it, like, we'll take our foot off the pedal. And we, and we've seen, I think we've seen some backsliding that is troubling on some level.

Because it feels like we're giving in to a very shrill subset of a subset that says, ‘You should not be, Nikki, doing your work.’ I should not be thinking about, you know, how do I help solve generational wealth gaps in underrepresented and underappreciated communities and underbanked communities, which is some of the work that I've done for the last 20 years. And, and to your point, what I, I applaud you, and I applaud the effort that Citi's doing to say this is about being thoughtful, but it's not about taking our foot off the gas and saying we're no longer going to show up and not do that work.

So, it just, you know, we've got to keep putting the pedal to the metal. It's really, really important.

We've had a great conversation personally, professionally. I love the work that you're doing, Nikki. What would be the one thing that you would footstamp for our listeners in everything that we've talked about, or maybe just an anecdote, again, either professionally in terms of the journey of finding what you love to do, or actually the work that you do on behalf of Citi? What would be a, premier highlight?

[00:44:57] Nikki Darden: You know, I'll say two things.

One, just for me, again, the thing that just doesn't seem to let me down is really thinking about what can we do? And sometimes it's starting with a morsel and building it out. And you've got to have the big thinking. You can't be satisfied with the morsel, but you gotta start with the morsel many, many times. And so just really being diligent and committed to what it is you're trying to deliver and who you're trying to deliver it for and what are those needs that you're trying to solve for me. That's number one - just sort of grounding in what am I trying to deliver and who am I trying to deliver it for and staying true to that.

But then I think, the second piece, just when you were talking about sort of finding your thing or whatever it may be, and how do you do that? The one piece of career advice I give people all the time, if people care to listen, because it's worked for me, is, you know, especially early in your career…

…a lot of people are going to tell you, ‘Oh, you've got an opportunity or something that you're not that great at. And so, you need to stretch yourself, or you need to fill this gap, or you need to round out your experience. And, and very early on, that's true because you don't know what you're good at and what you're not. So yes, you should get a lot of different experiences and do a lot of different things.

But as you start to figure out what you're good at, what you do better than most other people, stick to that is always my advice. Play to your strengths because that's where you're going to find joy. That's where you're going to find success. That's where you going to have fun. That's where it all sort of happens. That's where the magic happens. It's not, ‘Oh, I'm not good at this, so I'm going to take this role because it's going to really challenge me.’ You're going to feel challenged all the time!

[00:46:54] Jason Rudman: I think that's where the hive comes in, right? There's no one person that's great at everything. And other than that, being humble enough and vulnerable enough to say, ‘Hey, I've been doing this for X many, the experimentation of your career that leads you to right now. I own this, and I know that I'm great at it.’

And by the way, I know that I either don't like to do, or I'm not as great at that. And let me go find somebody that can, I can listen to, learn from. They can teach me, and together, we can be a force. I I think early on in our careers, and we crossed paths at American Express, and I think we both share a reverence and a love for our time at American Express. However, we were both on the receiving end, rightly so. of the ‘you need to go away and learn this in order to round you out.’

And more often than not, you and I would nod, and be like, yeah, we went and learned it, and it didn't impact our career negatively because what we learned is to go find people that love doing that work. And surround yourself with them so that you can learn from them and then, and then together, one plus one equals three.

Final, final, final, how do people find out more about you and the great work that you're doing.

[00:48:07] Nikki Darden: Well, you can always find me on LinkedIn. I'm Nikki Darden and I'm usually posting something fun that my team is doing. They're pretty phenomenal, [they] do really great work and we're coming up on a really busy season. So my LinkedIn will get a little busy again.

And then, personally I'm on Instagram @Dardenn; two N's at the end. That was my first email address at a job, when I first got email and I've kept it on everything ever since, so.

[00:48:42] Jason Rudman: Listen, I'm Jason Rudman at Gmail, and I claim that only because I think I was the first person on Google. I think the same, @jasonrudman on Instagram because, again, I'm not the only Jason Rudman, but I was, I like to think I was an early adopter. Has nothing to do with age, nothing to do with age!

I said at the beginning we've known each other for two-plus decades, and what you do brings me joy. Just reading about what you do to positively impact and ultimately change people's lives for the better.

And again, we've talked about, it starts with listening to yourself and understanding what you're great at and what you want to do. And then, as you said, sometimes you have to find somebody willing to invest in you because they see the power of your idea. And I don't think anybody listening to this should lose sight of the fact that you are a force, right?

And so much, so much of what we've talked about is because of your willingness to take a risk, have courage, find something that is eminently solvable, and then say, what are the steps I have to take along the way, and how do I bring people along in that journey, such that when we have an impact, we ultimately can look ourselves in the mirror and say, ‘Hey, I did good today!’

So, thank you for doing good every day. Really, really, really appreciate it.

[00:50:05] Nikki Darden: So good to see you as always.

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