Imani Winds: Cultural Revolution, Evolution and a Grammy Transcript

More Elephant Intro

[00:00:38] Jason Rudman: Hey, it's time for the latest More Elephant podcast. I say every single time that I'm really, really excited. But this one's really special. We're going to talk with Monica Ellis.

However, we're going to start with Grammy-award-winning Monica Ellis. So before we even get into your origin story, Imani Winds, all of that... How does that feel?

[00:01:01] Monica Ellis: Jason, my dear, my dear Jason, it feels amazing.

It's one of these things as a musician that you see, of course, the mega stars winning dozens of them, and it's just like they win these and eat these for breakfast. Then, you see the maybe not super duper megastar, but somebody that you kind of feel like, okay, I could do that win, say, six of them.

And then there's the rest of us who are you — you feel like a leader in your field and like you're doing this work. You're really going after it. And if you get even nominated once, it's already above what you can dream of. But getting at the actual thing, realizing that you're now in this category of Grammy-winning, it's really just crazy. It's humbling. It's exciting.

I try not to say proud because I want to remain grounded, but I'm very proud of myself. I'm also proud of the work that Imani Winds has done all these years. We've been grinding it out for a long time, and so this kind of recognition is really special.

And then what makes it just triply, quadruply special is that we share it with these other musicians that were on this particular record and with Toyin, the other founding member that's still in the group. Her father is on this record. It's just this huge family affair. So, it just kind of takes it to another dimension of excitement.

[00:02:24] Jason Rudman: I love that because we started at the end first, and now we're going to go all the way back to the first, right? So this story for everybody listening ends with a Grammy.

[00:02:32] Monica Ellis: Yeah, about that!

[00:02:33] Jason Rudman: But there is so much more in between. And a Grammy for a piece which is, for everybody listening, Passion for Bach and Coltrane. People go and listen to it. It is amazing. It is on repeat, Monica, in the car, because when I listened to it, like just the spoken word inserts, it's an amazing piece. I'm not saying that just because I love you. However, I love you. All right.

So Monica Ellis, founding member, co-artistic, and executive director of Imani Winds, the Imani Winds Quintet. And I think to your point, you said about the Grammy. you've been on the grind. Over a quarter of a century of what you on the site talk about — revolution and evolution as a wind quintet. And so I want to get into the power and the opportunity of black chamber or classical music, what it teaches us about culture, what biases have you seen or are still there against this specific type of music being commissioned and heard versus, in chamber circles versus what we associate traditionally.

That word traditional kind of always gets me because traditional — we can redefine traditional — but traditionally, there's been a chamber music experience, and I think Imani Winds and many others have been challenging that at every turn. So let's get into it.

Origin story. So if you would take us back to Pittsburgh, and you're a bassoonist. How did you find the bassoon or how did the bassoon find you? And what were the early influences in that origin story that are so connected to the present and how Imani Winds shows up in the world?

[00:04:09] Monica Ellis: Yeah, it's funny you even say that last bit you said the connections to present day which is about this record, Passion for Bach and Coltrane, and family.

My origin story starts with family, which you know very, very well. And you know how deeply attached I am to my family and to my teachers and people who raised me and Tiffany, for that matter, my sister, for the listeners.

My parents were just cheerleaders. And Mommy and Daddy put us in the places where we could succeed.

They had absolutely no doubt in the world that we would be the best at whatever it was that we were talented in or striving for. The level of care taken when it came to being excellent is just unmatched. And my Mom is that way to this day. She don't take no mess, and you know her very well. And so we know that that's true.

[00:05:03] Jason Rudman: She is one of my second mothers. I love her dearly. She was at our wedding. She has always been a fervent supporter of Alvin and me. And I think that extends to anybody else that's in her orbit where she sees excellence and wants excellence to flower.

[00:05:17] Monica Ellis: That's right. That's right. We were growing up in this type of situation where it was just expected for us to be amazing. We're both parents now, we strive to be better parents and in many ways like what our parents did for us. And she did it in this very subtle kind of way. There was never this insistence upon being so great that it would crush you. It was always just like, of course, this is what you're going to do. It just was very clear and casual.

So that's the scene. That kind of sets the scene for me growing up in our beloved neighborhood of the Hill District. And our school fortunately had a wonderful music program. And public schools at that time really did. And, fast forward to traveling around the country, seeing the state of some of the schools around the country, it's really a shame what is not the case anymore.

But nevertheless, it was a great experience. And so I showed an early talent and interest in music. My father was a jazz musician. He was a part of a group in Pittsburgh that was kind of a local house band named Walt Harper; my Dad was a part of the Walt Harper Ensemble.

And him as a saxophonist was for sure my early influences. But he also just kind of had a day job too. And so, we knew he performed and played, it wasn't just thrown up at our faces really. It was just kind of a part of his persona. So music was just there in my bones really, in my blood.

So I find myself in the second grade. Here's a funny story. So the third grade is when you're supposed to start band, or you get a new instrument. Well, I was showing some talent in the second grade, and so my Mom and Dad went to the teacher and said, ‘I think Monica can start right now.’ And so he [the teacher] says, well, we just don't have enough instruments to have kids start at the second grade. And she said, well, she has her own instrument. Give me another reason. Tell me something else.

[00:07:12] Jason Rudman: To know your Mom.

[00:07:13] Monica Ellis: Right.

[00:07:13] Jason Rudman: I knew where this was going. She was either, we have the instrument or, well, I can go get an instrument, right,

[00:07:18] Monica Ellis: Right. What are you talking about? That's because she's already playing and she needs to be in the band with the kids now. And so that's really where it started. And just by the way, that's Ken Merusi, Mr. Merusi. And we are still dear friends to this day. I'm so grateful for his friendship over the years, over all these years.

So that's when I started playing the clarinet like a typical band kid in elementary school. Fast-forward to middle school, continued with the clarinet, started on the saxophone at that point in the jazz band, and had yet another wonderful teacher, Mr. Arthur Powell, Art Powell, and he was the middle school band teacher where we went.

And he was the one that said, ‘Why don't you try the bassoon?’ And it was around the eighth grade that he pretty much just handed me this box that I had no idea what was in it. And I think he said he thought that I needed another challenge. I didn't think I needed another challenge. He didn't really say that, but I just had the impression that he saw the talent in me and these other instruments and thought that could be translated into something a little bit more unusual.

[00:08:25] Jason Rudman: Unusual, right? I love that. The unusualness of the bassoon. So I've seen you play, you played at our wedding. I've seen you play a couple of times, but you played at our wedding.

So you then fell in love with the bassoon, right? I find that like there is a clarinet, and a saxophone, you were a band kid. Somebody hands you the most unusual of instruments, you don't know what's in the box. And then you fall in love with the bassoon.

What is it about the bassoon that was the unlock? Like a More Elephant moment, if you like. It's like, I played all these instruments, I know I'm good, my Mom tells me I'm good, my Dad tells me I'm good, and then I get this box.

[00:09:01] Monica Ellis: I'll tell you, you know what it really was, which is a very ironic thing, it was the entree into being in an orchestra, actually. So the bassoon allowed me to play in an orchestra and that's what really jazzed me up.

I thought, okay, I was just kind of doing the band, maybe the little jazz ensemble, but I started [playing] the bassoon, and I got into the Pittsburgh Youth Orchestra and some other youth orchestras in the city. And this massive amount of sound enveloped me. That's what actually did it. It was via the bassoon.

And to tell you the truth, I sometimes think if somebody had handed me a cello or percussion, I don't know, anything, but I could play in an orchestra, then I might be playing that instrument!!

So it was both the bassoon and the ability to not be in something really brand new in this orchestral setting with a hundred people on a stage and being a part of this humongous group.

And the irony is that, yeah, for the past 27 years, however, I came back to the small ensemble, but it was that big sound of an orchestra that got my ear the first time.

And Jason, to tell you the real truth, it's not just this moment, I'm realizing, because I tell that part of the story so much, but I'm kind of piecing together that maybe because that was my first falling in love with the bassoon, being in an orchestra, that I want to bring the sound and the bigness of an orchestra back to Imani Winds. I never really made that correlation into a kind of right now.

[00:10:27] Jason Rudman: Ah, well, there you go. A More Elephant moment. I love it. I Love it.

I would offer as well. Again, how many folks do you know that play the bassoon? I do say like as great as you are. Being another trumpet player or another saxophonist. And I'm not cheapening being able to be a trombonist or a trumpeteer or a saxophonist, but the bassoon? People notice Monica Ellis with a bassoon when she walks into the room.

Forget how amazing you are at it, I feel like the instrument also celebrates your authentic self.

[00:11:03] Monica Ellis: I think you're right. You're absolutely right.

And absolutely there was something about it — mystique, uniqueness, unusualness, that it was different. There was definitely something that got me at a point. I think by the time I was working my way up through high school and got to study with a great teacher from the Pittsburgh Symphony, who also just kind of opened my mind to things I had no idea what he was talking about most of the time which I reflect upon over the years.

But it was brilliant because he knew somehow, instinctively, that he would be telling me things that I wouldn't really understand now, but at some point way down the road, it would click. And I think the bassoon was like that too.

It didn't really hit me at first that this was something really, really different. It wasn't until I had auditioned for school, I wanted to do it. I want to focus on it for the conservatory, but I was still actually playing a lot of piano too. Piano was really the next most important instrument in high school, to the point where I thought in high school, by the time I was a senior, that I was going to be a pianist as well.

But I did not get into any schools on piano. And, I'd like to say I was a very good pianist, but you have to be so much more because of the competitiveness of the instrument. And so, by the time I got the calls, I'm like, oh yeah, I go to this really elite school, Oberlin College Conservatory of Music, on the bassoon. This is pretty cool!

[00:12:29] Jason Rudman: Right. Like I'm a cohort of one or maybe two.

[00:12:33] Monica Ellis: Right, yeah. And I said, wow, okay this is really something. So I guess, things kind of, they say the frontal lobe is still forming, right, as a teenager. So things were not really clicking entirely for me to really, really know until I was almost basically a freshman in college now actually on this instrument.

And what really, I remember very distinctly, is that as much as I loved playing the piano, I was grateful that I did not get into schools on the piano. I was grateful that I was finally able to not just kind of say goodbye, so long, to all of these other instruments that I had played pretty well, very well, and solely focused on this amazing thing that was now going to be my life.

[00:13:16] Jason Rudman: Well, I feel as well that there's a soul to the bassoon, the way that it's played, maybe the way you play it. But I feel there's a soul to the bassoon, that within the context of chamber and classical music, I'm not going to suggest that piano doesn't have a soul, or anybody that plays it doesn't have a soul.

But I just think the sound, the syncopation of a bassoon and what it adds to from, a texture perspective, to the music that Imani Winds produces, there's just a soul to it, that I think again, just resonates with who you are and how you show up in the world.

[00:13:52] Monica Ellis: It's so true. You're hitting it right on the head.

I mean, it's the three-and-a-half octave range instrument, so it's a wide-range instrument. It has this beautiful bass quality where it's the cello, speaking of the cello, say of the wind quintet or even the bass of the wind family.

But then, it soars into this tenor range that my teacher, Frank Morelli from Juilliard was also in something called the New York City Opera, it doesn't exist anymore. But he has said many, many times that he just wanted to emulate Pavarotti on the stage when he was sitting in the pit orchestra at the New York City Opera.

So it has this gorgeous singing, soulful tenor range to it. So you can really go up in that area of the instrument and then come back down into the bass. And so, I totally agree that it just has a very special quality about it that lets you sing, if that's what you want to do, is you sing.

[00:14:42] Jason Rudman: That's right. And I love that you said the bassoon has become your life.

I don't want to skate past because you dropped it in there for anybody listening. Oberlin Conservatory, Juilliard for a Masters. So both are prestigious, both incredibly difficult to actually get into.

Within that experience, I mentioned at the beginning that I did want to talk about your personal and then the black cultural experience within chamber music. How representative were the programs at Oberlin and Juilliard at the time that you were in them?

[00:15:15] Monica Ellis: Well, Oberlin, I would say quite representative. I mean, still a minority for sure.

But of course, Oberlin, the college, and even the city, has such a deep history of social justice. And it was one of the stops on the Underground Railroad and so many firsts for the black community at Oberlin, this little small farming town in the middle of Ohio, 45 minutes west of Cleveland. But it was really this important place.

And so the liberal arts education and the very open-mindedness that you're going to get as a student there, that's been the case for decades, really. And so that's what I experienced for sure, just as a student. And then as a black student in the conservatory, again, yes, you’re a minority within a minority, I guess there are only five hundred (500) students or so within the conservatory. And I'm pretty sure it has stayed like that, that small amount of number.

But we were a tight community, and I think that does remain. There was a Black Student Musicians Union. There is something called the African Heritage House, which was a dorm, and aptly titled ‘The House’, because that's what we do, just The House. We spent all kinds of time, and that wasn't just for conservatory students, but because the school just has, again, this open-minded nature to it, that those that come there want to know about different cultures and different people from around the world and yet embrace your own culture, whatever that might be.

So I just kind of found my people. I found my tribe there for sure. And ironically, I was just there. We just performed last week at Oberlin. And we've been back over the years many times, but it's just so awesome to see that that spirit is still, you can smell it. It's still in the ether. So there was a sense of community and a sense of saying, okay, I'm not the only one, even though I am this minority within the minority.

[00:17:05] Jason Rudman: Did that change at all when you went to Juilliard? That's an elevated,that's a master's program. You're on this path, you've gone to this amazing conservatory, great experience. And then you say that over there is something I want to do.

So it's an undergraduate to a Master's degree, that elevates everything. How was that experience?

[00:17:25] Monica Ellis: Yeah, well, again, for me, and I know many do not have an experience like this, but for me, it was really successful and very beneficial. I had an amazing teacher, which is vital in our world.

The one-on-one connection with your private teacher is going to make or break any kind of conservatory experience. And so, once again, from the teachers in third grade, all the way to my Master's degree, I was just really fortunate to get people that I trusted, that I felt were rooting for me, were hard on me when they needed to be, and just took me to the next level. And so that's what I had in my teachers at Oberlin and Juilliard.

And so, yeah, the name of it all and I guess intimidation that could occur was not lost on me for sure. But I kind of took it in stride. I mean, it's my personality as well. I kind of, you know, I'm up for the task, as it were.

[00:18:18] Jason Rudman: She's like, I've got this, I've got this, I'm meant to be here.

[00:18:21] Monica Ellis: And actually I do think this, that coming into what could be a pretty intense situation as a Master’s student, does help. Of course, it's an undergraduate program as well. And in fact, some go to what's called the pre -college as a high schooler, and then those are called lifers. If you're there through high school, undergrad, graduate, and some even stay for postgraduate degrees, that's a lot.

But yeah, for the two years that I was there, I think I was able to just grasp and take advantage of the good parts about it and then not feel too overwhelmed by the fact that I was at Juilliard in New York City.

Also I have to add that, in my second year there, my sister, Tiffany, came to New York. So we were here together, that was probably about the time we met, you know, something like that.

[00:19:09] Jason Rudman: I think so, maybe.

[00:19:11] Monica Ellis: Definitely the 90s. We'll say the 90s.

[00:19:13] Jason Rudman: Late Nineties.

[00:19:14] Monica Ellis: That's right. That's right. So, you know, I say this to students all around the country when we have talks that find your people, find your people in any kind of situation that you're in.

You're not an island. You can't just be out there by yourself. Find whatever the people that bring you joy. Find them. Those that do not, take them out of your life  

[00:19:34] Jason Rudman: I love that. I love that. I just got invited to a Women's History Month when we're recording this — for those people listening, we're recording this in March — and I got asked, for some advice and I said to surround yourself with people who are rooting for you, who are betting on you to win. Not the people that vent down about what you do but the people that are betting on you to win and just surround yourself with them. And it's just amazing, amazing things will happen.

[00:19:58] Monica Ellis: And we know that that's not the easiest thing. Of course, we all go through knowing people that we think are going to be the ones that aren't, whether that's in relationships or family situations, whatever it might be, but at least have aspirational goal in mind.

[00:20:14] Jason Rudman: So let's pivot to Imani Winds. You mentioned you had this orchestra experience, so you got attracted to, oh, I can play this within the context of a big orchestra out of the school band feel. And then your journey inspires you to create a wind quintet.

What is Imani Winds? What does Imani mean? The name has significance, I know. And then why a wind quintet? Why was that veering off from a full orchestra experience?

[00:20:45] Monica Ellis: So the word Imani means faith in Swahili. It is one of the seven principles of Kwanzaa, which as we know is a celebration around Christmas time where there are various words that mean important things, mostly in the African-American community, but it can absolutely be applied to anyone and everyone. And so Imani is the last day of Kwanzaa and it means faith.

And so, to answer the next question of why this wind quintet…so, after I graduated from Juilliard, I went to Manhattan School of Music because this very teacher that I was talking about, I wanted to study with him for another year. My joke is that I really wasn't paying attention for two years straight. And then I needed that third year to be like, oh, that's what you meant. Oh, got it. See, why didn't you say that the first time?

[00:21:33] Jason Rudman: And he said, why didn't you listen? Why weren't you More Elephant the first time?

[00:21:37] Monica Ellis: There you go. Right. But no, I got a chance to study with him at Manhattan School because he teaches at both places, which is not uncommon here in New York City where teachers teach at various locations within the city.

And so up at Manhattan School, I just did this one-year program. And then, when you play these orchestral instruments the expectation, especially back then, is that you are going to go into an orchestra.

That you're going to take these auditions, you're going to fly around the country, when the auditions come up, which are few and far between and hope for the best. You and a hundred other bassoonists or a hundred other oboists, whatever it might be, and you're going to get the winning job. Well, I did that a couple of times. I can count on one hand how many auditions I took, so not very many.

But I was in New York City. I was in the best, one of the best places, one of the few places in the country where you can really thrive as a freelancer. And so, yeah, I'll go take this audition, but I'm doing this kind of ringer work for one of the small orchestras in the city.

I'm playing a little chamber music with a group that gets together and does outreach concerts for nursing homes. I'm getting asked to teach some lessons here and there.  So, I'm in THE city where this type of thing is possible.

And, it’s not that I didn't have chamber music or small ensemble experience before, but it was after I graduated, where I'm trying to just make my little bit of a living here and, in the meantime, between these auditions, I'm getting these other opportunities and, more importantly, around other people that are truly making a living at these other opportunities.

So, when the phone call came from one Valerie Coleman, who is the original flutist of Imani Winds, visionary, composer, all-around, just amazing person, crazy, crazy. She's my dear, dear friend still after all these years. Yeah, it was her concept. So that brings it back to Imani. She had the word and the name Imani Winds. She had that before she even had the people.

She was realizing her trajectory as a flutist, which is not an uncommon instrument. And so she's like, look, me and ten (10) other flute players are sitting right here, right now. So, what are they doing? What am I going to do to separate myself from other people? What can be that's going to really speak to me and a place where my music can be celebrated?

And so, she called us up, did not know anyone. She did know the original clarinetist, Mariam Adam. She knew her from a summer festival a year prior. They had gone to the Aspen summer camp in Aspen, Colorado. And, they both ended up back in New York for Grad school. She calls Miriam up one day. She says, ‘hey, I have this idea to put together a wind quintet made up of musicians of color, because that sounds really cool. And we're going to come together and show that Black musicians play this music. We're going to play my music and maybe just play the standard repertoire. What do you think?’

And Miriam says, oh, I'm in. I'm in. Okay. you got the other players? She said, no. It's just you and me. Who can we ask?

So, at that point, she went and asked some other friends for recommendations. The next person on board she found was Toyin. Now Toyin and I, she's the oboist, Toyin and I went to Oberlin together. We were in the trenches together at Oberlin. So she found Toyin. She was interested. Toyin recommended me, and we found a horn player that actually ended up only playing with us for about six months, really, because he's a little bit older than the rest of us.

And he realized that, oh, you know, you girls are cute and all, but — no, he never said that but I just like to say that in the story — but he's like, listen, you don't have any gigs. You don't have any gigs. And we're like, no, we literally just started a month ago. What are you talking about?

And he stuck with it for about six months. But he said I think I got somebody better for you. And he actually introduced us to Jeff, who then remained the French horn player until four years ago. So, it really all starts and finishes with Valerie Coleman when it comes to the really absolute beginning origins of it. But we were the same people for all these years, for seventeen (17) years, before there were any changes. And so we did truly build it together.

[00:26:02] Jason Rudman: This is an example of where passion meets purpose. And so Valerie, as you recounted said, well, I want to be playing this Black classical music, I want to make sure that people understand the interpretation of who we are.

And you and I were sharing, as we were planning for this, as I continue to learn and learn more about lots of things in life, we were talking about Florence Beatrice Price, the first Black female composer to have a symphony performed by a major American orchestra that most people probably have never heard of.

And so, I talked a little bit about this when we were talking about the Oberlin and the Juilliard experience. So, as Imani Winds creates the quintet, what's the environment for Black chamber music? So was there a bias, given the Florence Beatrice Price experience an unconscious bias against a certain type of music being commissioned or heard in chamber circles and/or played by people of color.

[00:26:59] Monica Ellis: Well, the bias almost started with wind quintet, period. And then the next bias was, oh, music by Black composers, maybe not.

But honestly, it almost starts with just the genre of the wind quintet or the subgenre, because it's not the string quartet, which is the granddaddy of them all. It's not even the piano trio, which is piano, violin, and cello. Huge history. So we become the other by nature of just being a wind quintet.

We're going to be just this, oh, once in a couple of seasons type of programming, whereas a presenter will program four concerts, three of them will definitely be all string quartets. You know, like, okay, another string quartet. And yeah, the fourth one will be a soloist or pianist or piano violin.

But yeah, there was the bias there. We had to convince people that the wind quintet period was something to be interested in. And then, from there is the next step of you're going to be interested in these five instruments coming together, which is a standard configuration. And then not only are we going to stop there, we're going to continue with you're going to also be interested in this music that you've never heard before being played by musicians that you think might not be able to play. And there absolutely comes a bias.

I think and, as you said, unconscious or conscious, but there is absolutely a bias with this thought that Black musicians are not going to be as good, as talented, or just at the level of artistry is not going to be met by white counterparts. And so that bias, definitely we had to fight that. We had to just show that not only was the music that we were playing going to be really interesting but the quality of that music.

So what do we do? We practice our butts off. I mean, we were in the shed, as we call it, just for hours and hours and hours. And I always say to college-age students these days I say, listen, you think you're busy, you're not busy. You're not busy now. You've got stuff to do. You've got to study. You've got this test and I don't want to diminish it. But trust me, you are the least busy now as a student than you will ever be in your life.

You graduate, then you got to pay your bills. You got to pay your loans back. You got to pay your rent. You're going to continue even more. You'll have a family. You'll have this. So, I say that because we took advantage of the time. We took advantage of having the time to just be with each other, to be the best that we possibly could, learning from each other, learning how to make this sound that would be Imani Winds signature sound.

We didn't know it back then at all. We didn't call it that. But we realized as time went on, as years went on, that we were creating something that was very, very special. So yeah we had to get past, like I said, just the initial idea of, okay, you want a quintet, you need us. And then this music is going to be very, very special and very, very interesting.

And I should say that there are maybe like ten (10) pieces in the classical wind quintet genre that we would consider standard. So right then and there, regardless of race and racial makeup, if you want to continue a career or create a career, build a career at being in a wind quintet, you're going to have to find some other music because you're going to get through the standard stuff real quick.

[00:30:25] Jason Rudman: Write it yourself. Find it or write it.

[00:30:28] Monica Ellis: Yes. Find it or write it. And that's exactly what we did. So, you know, Valerie's music and then eventually Jeff's music created this sound allowed for…we were a lab band for them.

They just got to be a ‘kid in the candy shop’ experimenting with different sounds and how we could create the other themes for programs. Fun stuff too, it doesn't always have to be really, really serious.

And so, you talk about Florence Price and people not knowing her music, or it being well known at a certain point and then just kind of disappearing and then now coming back, there is a resurgence these days, I think, for Black classical music and the appreciation of it, the acknowledgment of the importance of it. That really the music is for everybody. It doesn't belong to just one set of people and so yeah, we've been trying to preach that gospel for a long time.

[00:31:17] Jason Rudman: I love that. We were in conversation last year with Derek Fleming who, instrumental in transforming Harlem from a Red Rooster perspective and then doing work in Overtown. And we talked about the importance of the Black influence on culture and appreciating that it's actually America's history. We can't skate past the fact that that's America's history. And to your point, it has been underappreciated for such a long time.

I also want to point out that Imani Winds is chamber music at its finest. You've played at Carnegie Hall, Lincoln Center, Kennedy Center, and around the globe. I mean, quintessential chamber music in the hands of the Imani Winds quintet. And I also want to acknowledge, because I think this is one of the moments that anybody that knows you will hear this from you, that Imani Winds is a permanent presence in the classical music section of the Smithsonian National Museum of African American History and Culture in D. C. That's how powerful and important this is and what you do.

And so the power and the opportunity for black classical or chamber music, could you talk a little about that as you think about resurgence and then the importance of what you do from a commitment to education and teaching of that art form through the Imani Winds Chamber Music Festival.

[00:32:38] Monica Ellis: Yeah, well, the idea of resurgence and it coming back from, say the likes of William Grant Still and Florence Price, Margaret Bonds, these people that live almost a hundred years ago now and were quite vital and had flourishing careers. Julius Eastman, not quite that long ago, but fifty (50) years ago. I mean, I think we stand on those shoulders for sure. That phrase gets tossed around quite a bit, but it's true. There's a validity to that a lot of people came up in a very, very white world that is still a white world, no doubt about it, but had obstacles that we can't even dream of at this point.

We don't take that lightly at all. There are organizations out there that are doing very intentional and productive work and are also kind of standing on those shoulders, organizations like the Gateways Festival and the Sphinx Organization.

Speaking of orchestras, a number of fellowships that occur within major orchestras around the country that are specifically for African-American musicians, recognizing that there's a disparity that exists and that we have to even those playing fields and write the wrongs or, even if they weren't wrongs, just lack of acknowledgment from so many years ago.

And so yeah, I think the word resurgence can be applicable, but also innovation, because what we're doing is, in a way, brand new, but also based on something. Everything has an origin story in one way or another. Valerie's music is what it is because she grew up in Louisville, Kentucky. And she was hearing soul and country and the radio, just black music on the radio. So everything kind of has its origin somewhere.

So we definitely, though, are built on that foundation for sure. And I think other musicians coming up nowadays feel like they're building on our foundation, which is deeply humbling and amazing. And that leads to your other question about education.

So very, very early on, I mean, one of the first gigs that we did was outreach concerts for kids. And we recognized, fortunately, we liked it. We're goofy and kind of silly in our lives anyway. Don't take ourselves too seriously. And so we realized that definitely, we could do these types of concerts.

I think Val worked for a YMCA in those early years, developing programming for kids. Our first agent was a company called Concert Artists Guild. They've been around for many, many years. I am actually now a board member of Concert Artists Guild. So it's a beautiful full-circle thing.

They were our first artist management and we came on board with them as something called an Ensemble Residency Group. And so we were like, well, what does this mean? Educational Residency Ensemble, that was the actual name. And we said, well, wait a second, we're working so hard. We are staged, we are recitalists. What do you mean?

Education, yeah, we'll do an occasional kid concert, but they wanted to put us in places a week long, you do three concerts a day in fifteen schools in the whole week and then the concert at the end of the week.

And it was kind of a tough pill to swallow at first because we did really recognize ourselves as these people that just needed to be on the stage. But boy were we wrong and very glad that others had better ideas. Smarter people in the room prevailed because it was amazingly gratified and kind of helped us cut our teeth as well, not just for other outreach and community-based programming, but for that concert at the end of the week, it was the main recital.

I think another thing that we've become so well known for is how we speak to the audience from the stage. We learned that through our education concerts at Carnegie Hall, at The Kennedy Center, at PS 32 around the corner, wherever we're going, we're going to talk, we're going to use our voices to engage with our audiences and enlighten them, empower them to listen to this music in a way that they'll understand and not in a condescending way because you don't understand it, but it is new music. It is music that you likely never heard before. And that's okay. We want you to appreciate it and to know where it came from.

So any kind of educational activities are very important to us, not to mention just the giving back aspect of it. My story is a cool one, but it's not terribly unique. We've all thankfully had really great teachers and influences and we want to just continue to give back. So our chamber music festival, Imani Winds Chamber Music Festival…we just name things after ourselves by the way.

[00:37:26] Jason Rudman: Why not? That's good branding.

[00:37:28] Monica Ellis: Yes, so that was the first thing that we just decided to name after ourselves. We have a few other things from that point. But yeah, again, it comes back to Valerie.

It's now in its fourteenth year this coming summer and she had this concept of, well, we're going around the country, we're performing everywhere, we give master classes. What if we try to do that same thing, but in a longer setting in New York, where we live, so we can be home. It was a little bit of a selfish notion in there. But let's do it for a concentrated amount of time and then we can really dive into something with these students.

So that's what we built. It's a 10-day, 11-day festival. Students come from all around the country and we've had a few international students over the years. They come to study with us. We put them in chamber music groups,mostly wind quintets.

Some come as pre-formed groups, which is really exciting because they want to be together. They want to think about doing this after they're finished. We've had a few pre-formed groups that have actually gone on and continue as groups to this day.

And you're just studying the art of chamber music from the tiny little nuts and bolts of queuing and moving your instrument in a particular way that is like a conductor, so that you know where the downbeat is, to the macro of entrepreneurial skills and career development ideas, the art of outreach concerts.

So there's other seminars that occur that talk about performance anxiety, Alexander technique and the body and the physicality of playing the instrument. So we try to make it a really fullsome and interesting programming. It's jam packed with a bunch of stuff performances at the end of it.

There's also a composers component. So, we've got composers coming writing for the very groups that we create, they combine together, that collaboration occurs. So it's super fun, it's a whole lot of work.

[00:39:22] Jason Rudman: I'm exhausted just listening to it. And you said we try to pull this together. There's no trying. It's a programmatic response. The idea that came in my head is like it's X-Factor without Simon Cowell.

At the end of the day, everybody leaves better for it. There's not really a competition, but it's like, oh, I see you. Let's try and see if we can form a quintet over here with some of this raw material.

So, you mentioned that you very easily put Imani Winds in everything, so you have the Imani Winds Foundation that you started in 2019 and you now have your own imprint, right?

So could you just talk a little bit about from the Chamber Music Festival and all the greatness that you just talked about to what does the Imani Winds Foundation seek to do? And then why start your own imprint?

[00:40:10] Monica Ellis: Well, the foundation is amazing, really. To tell you the truth, I'm having the most fun. I'm pulling my little pigtails out because it's so much work, but it's really gratifying and really fun because you see the fruits of your labor in real time with the foundation.

And so just a very quick bit of history with that. We were an LLC, simple business model for many, many years. And then we got under the umbrella of an organization that helps small groups like us or artists like us, right here in New York City, that allowed for us to gain access to certain grants and donations by individuals for tax deduction that’s under their umbrella.

But it was still limiting. It still wasn't our own thing and we still did not have access to a large amount. And so in 2019, we finally decided, okay, I think it's time for us to actually be our own 501(c)3. We had seen other groups honestly do this.

There's another amazing reed quintet, not a woodwind quintet, but a reed quintet out of Detroit, their named Akropolis. And we look to them a lot. They're doing amazing work in the Detroit area. And they're like half as old as us, but started their nonprofit early on too. So there's groups out there that have some really smart, crack minds in there. These kids.

[00:41:33] Jason Rudman: These kids these days.

[00:41:34] Monica Ellis: That's right. And so we've got some advice from people like them and said, how did you do it? What did you do? And then kind of just took the plunge.

It's not cheap, you have loads of paperwork and governance and a board that you have to have. But we really realized that we have been doing this now for so long, the festival itself, other ways, other initiatives like our commissioning projects. We've been doing the work that could fall under a foundation and a charitable organization already so let's just keep it going. And so that's what we did. We formed it.

And we're so grateful because we immediately got some support because of the precedence of what we had already built. And honestly, through COVID when all of the work just went away, again, we were really, really grateful that some of that foundational support from local entities here in New York City helped us kind of carry through.

So, it's been great because not only can you come up with funding for ideas that you already have, but you can look at what kind of funding is out there and apply ideas to it. So that's kind of the fun part. It's seeing that honestly, there's a lot of money out there for a lot. Philanthropy is huge for a reason because people want to give. And so what is the purpose of the Imani Winds Foundation? Our mission statement is broad by design - making meaningful connections through music.

So we want to encompass a lot of things. The festival is one of them. Our legacy commissioning project, which is where our commissions come through, is another one of them. And yes, the latest thing is the Imani Winds Media Company, which is the record label. Our joke is we have 100% percent success rate because we made one record and it got a Grammy. So, Wooh!

[00:43:25] Jason Rudman: Hey, hey, well, that's it. So creating the imprint under the foundation to effectively give access to other musicians to celebrate their life's work and do what they do best.

[00:43:38] Monica Ellis: That's exactly right. The media company will now house our per hour, upcoming recordings but also, if we want it to be, we have this concept of it being this resource house for up and coming musicians, particularly musicians of color, that want to do what you're doing right now - podcasts, that want to make recordings, that want to make videos.

How can we give back with some very concrete resources and some concrete mentorship and sponsorship. And so, it's in its very infancy stage right now. I mean, yes, we did make the record and it got the Grammy, which is amazing, but other activities, we're building it.

And again, to have something new, different, but still speaks to the core of what we are about, is how I think we create longevity. And where did twenty-seven (27) years go, I don't know. I don't know. But it feels like.

[00:44:33] Jason Rudman: Authentically, authentically, Imani Winds right? The reason it works is because it's so authentic. And I think that's a good lesson in life. When you're authentically you or you're authentically doing what you were meant to be doing, people see the joy in it and they actually want, it attracts people, it doesn't repel them,

[00:44:49] Monica Ellis: Yeah. It's so true. And I should say also, one other aspect, a huge aspect is that, after seventeen (17) years, people wanted to go and do some other stuff. And so we had new people come in. Mark Dover is our clarinetist, and he's been in now eight-and-a-half years, which is a very long time, in and of itself.

And then our flutist, Valerie. Valerie decided to leave and then Jeff left four years ago. So we've got three out of five people that are not a part of that first round of the musicians, but yet and still the mission remains the same.

[00:45:23] Jason Rudman: And so we'll end where we started with you’ve got an imprint and you've won a Grammy. She's like, we made one record. It's okay. It did something.

So there's a Jeff Scott connection though to a Passion for Bach and Coltrane. So full circle moment that Jeff, I know Jeff, I've seen him play. So he's no longer playing, however…and I'll let you finish the connection about how Passion for Bach and Coltrane came about.

[00:45:50] Monica Ellis: Exactly right. He is the composer and the creator around this whole project. His compositions are just amazing and are so unique in and of himself. It speaks to his influences of jazz and blues and South American music and Latin music in general.

And so this project, it's actually like 10 years old. It's been around for a long time. He had the impetus to create this duality with J.S. Bach and John Coltrane after reading A.B. Spellman's book, Things I Must Have Learned, was the name of his book. And so it's a book of poetry.

A.B. Spellman happens to be our Oboist, Toyin Spellman-Diaz, it's her father. He is a renowned thinker, writer in his own right. In the sixties, he did liner notes for some seminal jazz records. He came up with Amiri Baraka and Sonia Sanchez, Nikki Giovanni, these people. So he runs in these circles anyway.

And just after he retired from his, what he called his day job, his government job, working for the National Endowment for Arts for thirty-some-odd years, he became a full -time poet and created this book of poetry.

Well, Jeff gets this poetry one day, like I said, now going on probably more like twelve (12) years ago, and he's extremely moved by these stories and these pieces of poetry that tell these stories of these two icons. And not that long after, a large work is kind of being presented, he's talking about, yeah, he's creating it. And it was too big in Jeff's mind for just Imani Winds; it had to include other people.

I mean, if you're going to play anything by John Coltrane, you have to have a jazz trio, you have to have a bass, drums, piano. And then using the Goldberg variations of Bach just lended itself to strings in Jeff's mind.

So, we collaborated with the Harlem String Quartet. They're like a generation below us as well. Maybe not that much, but a good chunk of time, 10 years or so, come after us, but also just doing such great work especially with diversity and inclusion of composers.

In fact, we met them on a project of Chick Corea; Chick Corea created an orchestra like 15 years ago. He wanted to do this crossover type of stuff as well. And so, that's when we met Harlem String Quartet for the first time.

And we saw that their aesthetic was very similar to ours, with our association with jazz and, not that we were jazz musicians per se, but just the appreciation of it. And we had the same kind of soul and quality about approaching the music as classical musicians. So they were a great collaborator and they've been on it ever since.

We always wanted to record it. It took us a long time to record. It's 13 people, so it's expensive. It required a certain type of micing and setup, you could do it in a studio where everybody would be isolated, which would be fine and you would really get clarity. But Jeff always had this concept of it being everybody in a room. Well, that takes a particular type of micing and set-up.

And so finally, we just said, we hunkered down and Toyin, once again in her gift of grant writing, because she's our lead grant writer for the foundation, she was able to secure some funds for us to contribute towards the recording process. And yeah, it was amazing; it was just a beautiful experience.  

We basically gave two live concerts and then that's what created the record. And, then there's a video component from the session that is coming out as a small film on Good Friday (2024), as a matter of fact. So the film version of Passion for Bach and Coltrane, with the religious undertones of it, we thought what better way and day for it to come out.

[00:49:38] Jason Rudman: The Imani Winds Media Group is expanding beyond its Grammy award-winning. What are we going for? Is that like an Oscar? Are we aiming for an Oscar? Or an Emmy?

[00:49:47] Monica Ellis: You know, yeah, one of them, one of them, other ones, Yes.

[00:49:51] Jason Rudman: Come on through EGOT.

[00:49:55] Monica Ellis: Yes, yes. I love!

[00:49:59] Jason Rudman: There you go. I'm putting it out into the universe.

So if you were to tell your fifteen-year-old self, looking back on this phenomenal career that you've had. The power that you have to change hearts, minds, the way people think about Black chamber music. The opportunity you've created through education, teaching in the arts. As you reflect, what would you tell the 15-year-old about how this journey is going to be?

[00:50:29] Monica Ellis: Ah, I would say, I was having a ball at 15. I was having fun. I was living my best life. I would say it's gonna be hard at times. It's not going to be this great all the time. And by the way, like I lost my dad when I was 15. So it was not just roses at all.

But once again, the power of people that love you around you, we just kept trucking. We knew that this was a huge, and I know you picked 15 just arbitrarily somewhat, but like as a teenager, yeah.

[00:51:01] Jason Rudman: Somewhat.

[00:51:02] Monica Ellis: Somewhat, okay, there you go. But right, it wasn't easy, but at the same time, I just had people around me that lifted me up constantly. So when I look back on it, yes, bad things happen, but bad things happen to good people every day of the week.

So I think about it as a really good time. So I would say, it won't be this great all the time, but it's gonna be pretty good, girl.

[00:51:22] Jason Rudman: Yep. Yeah.

[00:51:23] Monica Ellis: Get ready.

[00:51:24] Jason Rudman: Get ready. because I think I know what I want to do.

[00:51:29] Monica Ellis: Yeah.

[00:51:29] Jason Rudman: Right. I think the beauty of your story is, and it's just such a gift. I think we're raising kids. I think that what we really hope and wish for them is that they find early that which brings them joy.

[00:51:43] Monica Ellis: Yes.

[00:51:44] Jason Rudman: And I think you found joy really early.

[00:51:47] Monica Ellis: I did, I really did. And I was lucky enough to have people that helped cultivate that joy and appreciated it with me. And moved heaven and earth to do what would work for it to continue to grow and be watered and fertilized and all that stuff.

[00:52:03] Jason Rudman: And nurtured and grown and all of that and pruned where it need to be, but we're done with all the analogies. So my friend, Grammy award-winning Monica Ellis, how do people find out more about all of the great work that Imani Winds is doing?

[00:52:17] Monica Ellis: Yes, you can absolutely find us at imaniwinds.com. There you can join our mailing list to get information about the foundation. Donate to the foundation if you're so inclined. You can go to imaniwindsfestival.com. The media company will soon have its website. It's still growing. But then we're on all the socials. We're on Facebook and Instagram. And that's where we post just...our fun shenanigans on the road. Like I said, we've perfected the art of having very effective meetings in minivans.

[00:52:48] Jason Rudman: Imani Winds Meetings in Minivans.

[00:52:50] Monica Ellis: Yeah. Yes. Yes. Like the Jerry Seinfeld - Coffee with Comedians and Cars. So yes, imaniwinds.com, that's the home base to knowing everything about us. Our touring schedule is there. Our discography is there. And so you can really find out anything you need to know about us there.

[00:53:09] Jason Rudman: We will make sure that we make it easy for people to find all of that. And we'll also put a link to the discography and also highlight Passion for Bach and Coltrane, which, as I said and as you know, is playing in the car, it's on repeat. It's remarkable. So thank you to the entire group for bringing that to our listening pleasure.

Congratulations again on twenty seven-plus years of grind that ends with a Grammy, which is one measure of greatness, not the only measure of greatness as you opened up. And we'll talk soon. Thanks so much.

[00:53:44] Monica Ellis: Thank you for having me. Love you.

[00:53:47] Jason Rudman: I love you too. See ya.

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