A Path to Generational Wealth with WealthMore Transcript

More Elephant Intro

[00:00:38] Jason Rudman: Welcome to the latest edition of the More Elephant podcast, where we like to mix it up with idea agents, change makers, and people who are just fascinating and interesting and doing some great things out there that we believe the world should know more about.

So, I am delighted to welcome Mical Jeanlys-White to today's conversation. Mical is the founder and CEO of WealthMore, an investing and planning service. And, as she likes to say, if you follow her on LinkedIn, she is ex-Wall Street, a FinTech founder, and most recently was recognized in the founder category in this past year’s @New York City FinTech Women's Inspiring FinTech Females 2023 list. Mical, I got through that. It was a lot, but welcome to the conversation. I'm delighted to have you.

[00:01:24] Mical Jeanlys-White: Jason, thank you for having me and for doing this. Thanks for elevating these conversations.

[00:01:31] Jason Rudman: Appreciate it. And part of it, Mical, is the things that I'm intimately interested in and get inspired by. You're one of those people that I get inspired by. And so, the easiest way to do that is just to be in conversation and listen to your origin story, your founder story, how you got to where you got to. The aha moments, the More Elephant moments where you said, “Hey, I was on Wall Street. I worked for some really, really big, great companies, learned a lot, time to do something else.” So, we're going to get into that. If you would describe for the audience what does WealthMore seek to do?

[00:02:02] Mical Jeanlys-White: Yeah, it's really transforming. How we look at wealth and our simple one-liner is ‘wealth is for us all.’ And that hasn't always been the case and I wouldn't be here if not for the fact that the stakes are so high. When we talk about who has access to wealth advice, it makes the biggest difference. It impacts you to the degree of two times more wealth. So, we're not talking about loose change, and yet most of us have never had access to wealth advice.

[00:02:33] Jason Rudman: I know that part of this to your point is about creating generational wealth, and we're going to get into a story about your grandmother and her mattress. But before we get there, let's go to your origin story. How would you describe the Mical Jeanlys-White journey? Where did it start, and what informed you along the way that got you to the point of starting WealthMore?

[00:02:59] Mical Jeanlys-White: Yeah. My story is a traditional classic American story, I'd like to say. I'm an immigrant. Like most Americans, I am a first-generation American. My family comes from Haiti, and I think we have that story of coming to the U.S. for better opportunities, working hard, building that American dream, buying a home, raising a family, all of those good things.

The only little problem is when you're in America, you need to invest to grow more wealth. And that is something most first-generation Americans, most immigrants, generally don't live in the zip codes where wealth advisors come in and knock on your door. And that's something that took me years to realize just how important that was because I think I got all those great messages from my grandmother: save, save, save, buy real estate, save, save, save, buy more real estate. It's not exactly how it works.

[00:03:59] Jason Rudman: Well, real estate is an unlock, but I think your point is you need money on the table, right? In order to get into the real estate game, and increasingly so, if you look at house price appreciation and availability. I read an article last week that said that, effectively, kids in their twenties are locked out of the real estate environment unless they've got parents with deep pockets. So, I think if we connect that to that sage advice that your grandmother told you…and then you had shared with me this story, she was a money in the mattress saver.

[00:04:33] Mical Jeanlys-White: She actually did like her bank. So, she was a super saver, but she had one of those old-school passport accounts. You take it to the bank; they would print your monthly interest in there. That was her big thing. It took forever to get her even to do CDs. That's how risk-averse she was. She never invested in the stock market. She thought it was gambling. She thought it was too risky. And despite having a granddaughter with multiple finance degrees and tons of Wall Street experience, I was only successful in getting her to do CDs.

[00:05:08] Jason Rudman: And CDs in a relatively low-rate environment, I assume, because it's been only in the recent past in our memory that we've had frothy rates where you can get north of five on a short-term CD, so not even being able to really capitalize on her savings, I assume.

[00:05:24] Mical Jeanlys-White: Absolutely. And I think what happens is that most of us get that same message. Work hard, save, take low risk investments, but you're missing out, you're not getting the right advice.

[00:05:37] Jason Rudman: So, what was the unlock for you? I like to talk about More Elephant moments, context being sometimes we just have to stand still and listen to those around us, maybe not even ourselves. And again, I know you're going to share, sitting or standing in meetings and rooms and being paralyzed or indeed, we’re solving things in the wrong way for the wrong people or should I say to your point, the financial system is not working for everybody, and we're not creating that wide net to invite people in. What were a couple of those More Elephant moments that stick with you?

[00:06:15] Mical Jeanlys-White: I think my first passion was credit, helping people better understand credit: cards, borrowing, how to make that work. I did that for many years at Amex (American Express), did that for many years at JPMorgan, bringing in products that gave people access to the free credit score, building products that allowed you to borrow with the sort of fixed repayment plan if you will.

But I had that moment where I was like, we've been moving the needle on this for a few decades now. And yet, I'm still hearing these same headline stories. Americans living paycheck-to-paycheck. People not building as much wealth. Generational wealth being gone within one generation.

I think that particular stat, particularly for women and minorities, that the generational wealth erodes in one generation, probably was the biggest eye-opener for me. As a mom of three black boys, to hear that all of this hard work could be gone in one generation is like, not on my watch.

[00:07:18] Jason Rudman: So, it's personal to your point.

[00:07:19] Mical Jeanlys-White: It's personal, but then you unpack and you sort of say, well, why is this happening? How can all this hard work not have more of a safety net for so many?

And it lies with advice. So, when you start looking at who has access to that great advice, it's the folks who already have money. It's the people that already have a few million dollars. They get a financial advisor who talks to them about, “Hey, do you have the right insurance? Are you doing the right college planning? Do you have the right state planning? Are you thinking about your retirement planning and living off the interest income versus the principal, hence being able to transfer wealth?” So, these things are not happening because of coincidence. It's who's getting great advice and who doesn't.

[00:08:07] Jason Rudman: So so true. I couldn't agree more based on personal experience. A first-generation immigrant to the U.S., my parents barely graduated high school, and financial planning was not a thing. It was if we can put food on the table and some clothes, there's probably not much money to actually save. So, there was no grandmother mattress saving going on in our house. And I think there's an element that you didn't call out explicitly, but I know to be true: a lot of what has gotten you to where you are is self-taught, whether it be going to school, making some mistakes, trying some things out, or a little bit of trial and error.

And, I so appreciate that journey personally as well because, like you, Alvin and I are at a point where we can have a conversation with a financial advisor and start talking about things like generational wealth. I will offer that, as good as I thought we were, that conversation in terms of what we are going to leave behind for the two kids beyond what we're going to live on because hopefully, I exceed the average life expectancy rate for a male in America…so, you've got to fund a long-term retirement and you want to be able to give the best start that you can to your kids in an environment and a system that is increasingly expensive.

[00:09:29] Mical Jeanlys-White: Increasingly expensive, Jason, but also increasingly not equitable.

[00:09:39] Jason Rudman: I love that. So, let's pull that through because I think you and I would acknowledge that's a truism. We're not on either side of the divide with me responding to that going, “Hmm, not too sure that I believe that.” We see it every day: lower levels of homeownership amongst black and brown people in this country persistently, lower levels of investing, and understanding to your point.

[00:10:00] Mical Jeanlys-White: But Jason, I want to take it a step back. Because what I find troublesome is that we're not unpacking the real issues. So, I, as a black woman in America, will make 67 cents to the dollar to my white male counterpart, which, over a 40-year working period, will mean I make over $2 million bucks less.

So now I'm not putting as much in a 401k. It’s why women tend to go into retirement and are more likely to be poor because we don't benefit from equal pay. Our cost of living is higher. It's really expensive to be poor in America. Everything costs more if you're not earning a livable wage, and then now, maybe I go into the housing market and I’m met with bias in underwriting, a biased home appraisal that further impacts my earning potential. These are some of the things we have to address if we are even to get to the point of how can I invest more if I'm not making more.

[00:11:09] Jason Rudman: I love where you went. So, you were in my head. I'm thinking back to a conversation that I had last year with Alphonso David, Global Black Economic Forum. We should point out 67 cents on the dollar compared to a white male, 80-some odd cents on the dollar for a white female. So, there's even disparity if you're a black and brown female compared to your white counterpart and that's real.

We've got a situation where only 1 percent of the venture funding is going to Black fintech entrepreneurs who, like you, have phenomenal lived experience with an idea that is right for the times, and yet it is incredibly difficult to find that path. That was Alfonso's point. So, you've got all these markers, and I love where you went, which is not just about teaching you how to invest; we've actually got to try to solve some systemic, persistent issues that do not allow for equitable opportunity for many marginalized communities. So, that's a lot, Mical.

[00:12:20] Mical Jeanlys-White: I don't think these problems are unsolvable. I just think we have to be very intentional about identifying the root causes. And I always bring up the wage gap, both gender and racial, because I get very concerned about headlines that seem to blame the victim. Because it's demoralizing if women are hearing this, Oh, what is up with the gender wealth gap? What is up with the racial wealth gap? And it always has this sort of undertone around: you're spending too much, you're being irresponsible. And, I am always challenging that narrative, but I also think these problems are solvable, but I think it's going to take many pieces coming together.

We have to have the law on our side to make sure people are getting equally paid. We also have to have legislation, like the automatic IRAs, things to make it easier for people to take from their paycheck and invest, whether or not your employer has a 401k, that you have these vehicles to help you get there. And then making it easier and more accessible for people to get great financial advice like we're doing with WealthMore.

[00:13:29] Jason Rudman: I don't think, to your point, you can skate past the fact that you've got to solve the imbalance of 67 cents on a dollar versus a dollar. So, you can do all of the great things – and we're going to go deep on WealthMore, how it's structured, and what your design thinking exercise was that got you to create the business – however, in order for WealthMore to be even incredibly more successful in moving the needle from an investment and planning service perspective, you need the raw ingredients.

And I think that's your point that some of the policy and the legal framework also need to change, which WealthMore alone cannot do. We'll acknowledge that. As passionate as both you and I are about what we think we can do within the sphere of influence, it is a much, much broader question.

So, you're looking at credit, and we've been trying to move the needle for what seems like forever. We're able to impact those people on the margin, who tend to be the folks who have figured something out and have access to assets and capital that they can then deploy, but you're trying to affect change at a much broader scale to create a financial system that works for everybody. So, how was that design thinking exercise then? What's your founders story?

As I've also said, entrepreneurship is incredibly hard and not for everybody. And every entrepreneur I speak to says that – that's the first thing they say: not for everybody, not for the faint of heart. I'm all-in on black: the house is mortgaged; everything's going on; I’ve got school fees to pay for, and the house is mortgaged up to the hilt. And here I am, getting up every day, trying to change the world.

So how did you start? What was the post-it note or the germ of that idea? Where were you when you said, this is it; this is the More Elephant path I've got to go down?

[00:15:18] Mical Jeanlys-White: Yeap. I was on my Peloton.

[00:15:20] Jason Rudman: Of course you were.

[00:15:22] Mical Jeanlys-White: On Sundays, I ride a more sort of Zen ride. Sundays are my Zen rides. There are two particular instructors I ride with on Sundays: either Ally Love or Dennis Morton, for those of you Peloton fans out there. This particular Sunday was actually a Dennis Morton, Bob Marley ride. And we were jamming to One Love and the idea for WealthMore came to me.

[00:15:48] Jason Rudman: Wow.

[00:15:53] Mical Jeanlys-White: You know, you get ideas all the time. It doesn't mean you go and act them. But I actually got off the bike, and I was like, this one's too good. I got off the bike, and I wrote it down. And if you're familiar with Mel Robbins, she has like the 20-second rule. And she always says, within 20 seconds, you'll talk yourself into or out of an idea.

And I had that 20-second moment where I was like, write it down and come back to it and see whether or not it still sticks. And I wrote it down, and it just kept taking off, like more ideas just kept flowing in, and I was like, well, why can't we have these dynamic wealth advisors that are diverse, that have these great lived experiences and create this digital community where people can get great advice but feel part of a wealth-building community.

So, you will see in WealthMore that there are a lot of design elements or inspiration that come from community building, that come from having access to an expert, and then wrapped around this very empowerment message around building wealth.

[00:17:03] Jason Rudman: So, first question. Did you get back on the bike and finish the session? I'm interested because it was your Zen moment. You're like, I got my 20 seconds. Now I have to finish Dennis's course. That's mission one. For those of you listening, I think Mical will have to pick herself up off the floor because she's in a fit of giggles, but while you compose yourself…

So, there were a couple of words in there that I really appreciate because I think it's at the core of what you've created – diverse and lived experience – because when I see people on the other side of the conversation who look like me and understand me more deliberately, then I feel I've got a partner in this community who not only understands but can appreciate how we might have to approach this in a different way.

And I'm also struck by, much like investing in and planning, I feel that way about mortgage as well having worked for a mortgage company that was homogenous. The MLOs were white and male, largely. There were very few females, and there were very few people of color. And there was a conversation that we had about how you attract the mortgage loan officers of tomorrow today because we're going into environments like Philly and Los Angeles. We want to be responsible from a DE&I perspective, and we're trying to go into areas where we don't actually have folks on the books that look like and, indeed, probably don't have the lived experience of the very people that we're trying to help.

How, then, did you source in a network of independent investing and planning advice and the people that are providing that advice? How did you source that? And did you also come up against some challenges in terms of available supply? Was it easy finding people with the right lived experience and the right representation to do this in a way that felt true to WealthMore?

[00:19:05] Mical Jeanlys-White: Jason, it was easier than I thought it would be. Shockingly easier. And the reason why is that a lot of these wealth advisors who have attempted to build books of business in these traditional wealth advisories – there are lawsuits on this – they were not welcomed. The dropout rate of women and diverse advisors in the, let's call it, red carpet-type advisories is incredibly high. I actually started asking questions. I'm like, why are you no longer a wealth advisor? The way books of businesses are assigned, who gets to go talk to a high-net-worth client? So, it was actually a lot easier than I thought.

[00:19:57] Jason Rudman: So, we're going to call that what that is on More Elephant, that is institutionalized racism. We talk frankly here, and I think we have to confront some of that. To walk past it and assume it doesn't exist in this world…

We've got a lot of external debate about whether we're being woke, and the recent decision on affirmative action being absolutely one of those, in my words, shocking, but not shocking, given who was making it, decisions to suggest that somehow the playing field miraculously is level after four or five decades; we know that is not the case.

I think what's really interesting then is, shockingly easy or easier, your words, easier than you thought. And yet, if we were to take a step back, it would feed the perception when you don't see women and people of color in an advisory role, you assume it's because they are not of the right caliber actually to do it. So, it fuels the circle of lack of opportunity, not only for the advisor but also for the people that WealthMore is attempting to serve.

[00:21:15] Mical Jeanlys-White: And Jason, I also want to pull a little on lived experiences. It's amazing what happens when you tell someone you can bring your lived experiences to the table. So, many of the diverse wealth advisors felt like they had to hide where they came from to fit in these environments.

Like, I shouldn't let my wealthy clients know that I grew up in poverty; they're not going to trust my wealth advice. So, when you tell someone, no, I want you to talk about that because the people we are talking to are builders, they didn't necessarily come from money. Actually, most Americans don't come from money. So, why are we posturing?

[00:22:00] Jason Rudman: Well, I think you know, right? You use the red carpet image is effectively a luxury image and luxury begets luxury. It's all a sense of revalidating that you're in a private club. And, in order to get into the private club, you needed the right level of credentials.

[00:22:19] Mical Jeanlys-White: I'll share this example with you. I went to a summit. I met a white male gay advisor who was working at a firm where he did not feel comfortable bringing his entire self. I told him, come to WealthMore, please. Ludicrous.

[00:22:38] Jason Rudman: Ludicrous. However, I think giving voice to these experiences helps people understand that we've still got a long way to go.

Alvin and I have two kids. You can't go back in the closet when you decide to be parents and your two dads. However, I am still confronted today, not where I work today, but in organizations in the past, with people who have one-on-one said, thank you for being authentically you, it gives me hope. I am still not convinced that I can come out in this environment, that I can be myself, but I see in you a path to possibility.

And it just makes me sad. There's a sadness to that, I think, because you are authentically living the wildest dreams of your grandmother. I am living the wildest dreams of my parents, who could never conceive that I'd be doing this. And I would argue that we, individually, and the world, at large, are better for it. So, yeah, it is undoubtedly a continual challenge that, I think, frames some of the work that you're doing and who you invite to the table, both on the advisor side and on the customer side.

So, could you describe then how WealthMore works? If I wanted to become a WealthMore customer, and I also wanted to become a WealthMore advisor – how do both of those things work?

[00:24:09] Mical Jeanlys-White: Yeah, I know. We're super excited on both ends. I couldn't be prouder about the group of wealth advisors that we've recruited. Their lived experiences, their personal stories, the humanity, and expertise they bring to the table – I'm better with my money having all these amazing wealth advisors around me.

Even when you think you know a lot, there are still things like Oh, I didn't realize I should be doing that as well. So, I can be prouder. They are all certified financial planners with eight to 10 years of experience in the industry. I like to say they actually learned and got the education to give advice. So, they're not like folks on TikTok saying whatever they'd like.

[00:24:54] Jason Rudman: Let's make sure – that’s very important. We are not TikTok’ing our way to investment and planning advice for anybody listening.

[00:25:00] Mical Jeanlys-White: Exactly. But they also bring the human element because money is emotional. I have realized that some of my decisions were based on emotions such as not wanting to be in a position of scarcity or feeling like, oh, debt is a bad thing, but debt can be used in a very intentional way. So, having that advisor understand.

The first time I met with the advisor, and I tell the advisor how much I'd like to keep in a rainy-day fund, the advisor said to me – my husband and I are sitting there, both of us, plenty of financial services experience and degrees – said to me, what are you expecting? a tsunami? And I was just like, wow, you don't know why I feel better having more of an emergency fund. You don't know the history behind that. But the flippant response of like, like, essentially, he was saying that's stupid.

[00:25:53] Jason Rudman: Without using that word. Yeah, for sure.

[00:25:56] Mical Jeanlys-White: Right. So, we take a very different approach. We want to understand, what have you seen? What have you experienced? and bring that human element to how we approach people. You don't know if I feel like I have other family members I need to help. You don't know. So, that flippant response was just like, you clearly need me. And I was like, no, I clearly don't.

[00:26:19] Jason Rudman: Yeah. I'll go out on a limb on that. I think that's completely flippant. And then I think they met the wrong person with that flippant comment as well. Because some people who have less agency, I would argue, would have said, oh, okay, well you're the expert, so I'll calibrate appropriately.

Your response, with your husband, was no, you actually haven't taken the time to get to know me and I'll go find somebody that does know me, which I think leads into the experience that you're building at WealthMore, which is understanding the psychological connection to money, your lived experience, and then working with you to create pathways and open up additional apertures with that source of funds.

[00:27:03] Mical Jeanlys-White: You go it. And then we also bring this whole community element to this. So, when we tested the concept in research. It's interesting, right? So, you talked a little about design thinking.

We had this initial concept that we took into research, had over 300 or so folks give us feedback. Eye-opening. So, I love talking to customers. They tell you, no, blind spot; this is what we need. Do you know what customers told us? We want the ability to message the advisors to be front and center and for the portfolios that we invest, we want an advisor to own those portfolios and give us feedback and insights that tie directly to our dollars in those portfolios.

[00:27:47] Jason Rudman: Pull that thread a little for the audience that's listening. How should they think about that unlock of an idea through design thinking? Why is that different?

[00:27:57] Mical Jeanlys-White: Because what that said to us was that people want a little bit of a hotline. Like, I have a question. Maybe I Googled it, but it's not really specific to my situation. I don’t need a 30-minute conversation with my advisor. I just want to be like, “Hey, here's a situation. What do you think?”

So that was eye-opening, and I think that changed the future of advice completely. And we sort of call it ‘advice on demand’ where people are like, no, I don't want a quarterly meeting as things come up, I want an easy, fast way to engage with the advisor. The portfolio piece, to me, was eye-opening because I actually did not think that was going to be the number one feature. If you'd asked me before research, I was like, yeah, maybe number three. But we asked people to rank them, it ranked number one.

And I think it's that separation in most investment houses. You have the CIO here, and you have the planners here. The CIO is making these grandiose projections about the whole market that don't link back to Mical's money or Jason's money. And folks want to know, what does inflation mean to my portfolio? What do these increases mean to me – the actual dollars I have invested in the growth portfolio or the technology portfolio?

[00:29:26] Jason Rudman: I'm smiling. So, the current financial planning and investing company, not to be named, that the Rudman-McCray family works with. I'm struck by what you said because I had called them on a couple of decisions in the past where I thought they were flat-out wrong, and it took heaven and earth to tell them.

They would come back and say no, we've got this price target; we've got this dividend yield. Look, the market fundamentals for that particular company would suggest that your price target is well overinflated, and it turned out twice to be true. And I'm with a red carpet firm. I just want to be really, really clear.

But your point would be, why do you feel that you have to do that? At the end of the day, that's you doing their job for them. So, it's not lost on me that that advice on demand, which I've invoked a few times with the red carpet company, where it's actually not a feature and I've just kind of had to bulldoze my way in

And we're not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination. I just want to point that out for anybody listening. We've worked hard. We did not follow your grandmother's mattress example. We've done something different than that. But it's not a ‘I could retire tomorrow and not work another day in my life.’ We're still working hard in order to get to that point.

Your point about that model – not only the lack of availability for most people and a very prescribed way of engagement, is very different from what you're trying to create and what you just described.

[00:31:09] Mical Jeanlys-White: Yeah. And I like to tell people, most people don't with the family office, but I like to think that when you're on our platform, it should feel like a family office because depending on which plan you're on, you either have a dedicated advisor, but advisors have areas in which they particularly are passionate about or specialize in.

And so, on our platform, we give the advisors the opportunity to give holistic advice, but also to specialize. If I have a particular question about college planning or estate planning, I will go to the person who specializes in those areas. Now I'm starting to feel like I'm Oprah.

[00:31:54] Jason Rudman: Yeah. I can't tell you how special that feels because, again, I think about our experience, and the 529 plan is the 529 plan. The conversation about college planning, run the numbers, here's where you go to. The specialization that you describe is, by definition, special and feels incredibly personal to what it is that I'm attempting to do today and is not connected to the annual wealth plan redo that is our minimum commitment on the red carpet side of the house.

[00:32:28] Mical Jeanlys-White: So, the communities are also one of my favorites. The two other elements of the user experience are really, really near and dear to me. Communities. People do amazing things with having a circle of support, empowerment, and accountability.

And so, we bring that into the experience, and the communities are led by the wealth advisors. So, you can be part of college planning, but you can also be part of ‘men who wealth’ or ‘first-generation wealth builders.’ So now you feel like, why do I have to go this alone?

So much data has shown, be it weight loss, smaller community money clubs that when people feel like they have a bit of support, I'm in this with some other folks, we're more likely to hit those goals. The latest trend, and this is a good one for TikTok, this loud budgeting, I love it! Yes. Budget out loud. Tell your friends why I'm not coming to dinner and dropping 300 bucks on this meal.

[00:33:30] Jason Rudman: Right. Well, hopefully, it's not because I went and bought a pair of Gucci pumps or something like that. I just want to make sure that we are actually making the right decisions when budgeting out loud.

[00:33:41] Mical Jeanlys-White: I want to put 300 more bucks into my investing portfolio and be able to not feel like, oh, I'm being left out because guess what, two more friends might say, you know what, I'm going to join you on that.

[00:33:55] Jason Rudman: So, a couple of thoughts. One is the data tells us that our Gen Z cohort feels the need to be more responsible in general with money. And so, I think solutions like WealthMore, meeting the moment, are incredibly important.

We recently talked with Charles Phillips, founder of Sawa Money, and the community aspect of his solution of a money wheel, which effectively is, how do I get you to start saving at a small clip and then ultimately start within a community aspect of shared responsibility, move you up to how we can help you get a down payment on a mortgage. That community aspect is, I also think, the next level of experimentation as we think about how we pool resources and pool thinking in order to elevate a community to realize the gains that you just talked about and truly, truly unlock that path to generational wealth.

[00:35:03] Mical Jeanlys-White: I'm so glad you mentioned that because I think this sort of brings a full circle moment. So, growing up in Brooklyn, as a first-generation American family, very leery of the banking system, and for many immigrants, not having access to a bank account to save.

It's not unusual, particularly in black, Latino, and Caribbean communities, to have what is either called, in Haitian Creole, we would call it a mess, but also in a Susu, there are different terms for it. But there was this centralized person who was the banker, and everyone would come and make their contribution a bit of a round robin, and everyone was accountable towards, here's my contribution this week or this month, and that's like, all right, this person gets the pot if you will. And that's how people saved for down payments. That's how many people bought their first home and this whole shared accountability, shared goal.

So, when you look at some of the immigrant communities and their successful rates of homeownership movement into the middle class, I've gotten this question before. What do you think is so different about the immigrant community? And I'm like – for many, many decades, this centralized sort of communal mindset around progress.

[00:36:24] Jason Rudman: Right. Lift one, lift many. That's essentially what it is. I feel like I need to now have a podcast with you and Charles on at the same time, just talking about the ideation and what you're seeing. We may plan that in the future. So, we talked about the advisors. How do you source customers? You're a startup. I'm going to assume that the marketing budget is not big. So, there's no out-of-home billboard on I-95 going, ‘Hey, WealthMore, WealthMore, come find me.’ So, how do customers find you? Is it a lot of word of mouth, is it referral?

[00:36:57] Mical Jeanlys-White: Yeah, it's so interesting because coming from these mega brands where you have super-champagne budget.

[00:37:07] Jason Rudman: Hang on. I just want to point out that you've now managed to work in the red carpet and super-champagne budget. There's something going on here. That's a whole ‘nother conversation. So, you got off the Peloton bike. I think you got back on. You've referenced red carpets and champagne. I'm noting a theme, noting a theme.

[00:37:23] Mical Jeanlys-White: There is only one thing I really miss. And that is having that champagne marketing budget. When you can put me on the record, I miss having that robust marketing campaign. And I say that because I've always been a marketer. I've always been interested in the language that connects you to the audience, how you find your audience, and how you make that emotional connection with them.

The beauty is that I came from places where we had the best agencies at our disposal. Thankfully, I have a lot of that here that I can help direct, but I certainly have interviewed a number of smaller agencies and felt the lack of budget and the lack of that sort of creativity. But I think we've still done a really good job through testing our marketing, testing our messaging, seeing what works, and being able to optimize things like Google Ads, IG, Facebook, and LinkedIn. We find our community is really on LinkedIn.

And we have done that through testing our tagline – ‘Wealth is for us all’ does super well, ‘get the wealth advice you deserve’, and showing different people in wealth conversations has been super impactful. The fact that people feel seen showing a Black woman, a Latina, in a wealth ad. Showing an Asian male it shows people like, no, this is for me too. And I think that has been a superpower in our marketing.

[00:39:05] Jason Rudman: For sure. Like representation matters. So, the beauty of the More Elephant podcast is now I connect that to the conversation I had with Nikki Darden in 2023, where she led the effort to basically overhaul the Getty Image library that Citibank was using to make it more representative of who they were going after.

You're absolutely right. Nikki and I were talking about the numbers, the numbers are staggering. Black and brown people will tell you that they don't see themselves in family portrayal or investing portrayal. Women don't see themselves in knowledge worker, white-color advertising. And we've talked about the persistence of imagery. I would argue that that's another area where we've got to acknowledge that that's a root cause thread as well. We talked about the pay equity gap, there's a representation gap in terms of who and how you see yourself when you are confronted with where to invest and plan. If you don't see yourself, you feel as though you're excluded from even having that conversation.

[00:40:08] Mical Jeanlys-White: The world is still getting used to a Black woman running a wealth start-up.

[00:40:13] Jason Rudman: Yeah. I swear, for everybody listening, we are not scripted here. So, let's pull that thread because I do want to talk about your entrepreneurial journey. So, you just gave me the ‘in’ there where you said the world is still getting used to seeing me walk into a room talking about this. Ups and downs, I'm sure. It's not plain sailing. How would you describe your entrepreneurial journey?

[00:40:38] Mical Jeanlys-White: There is the sort of, hey, the ‘space’ loves someone who has domain expertise. The ‘space’ loves someone who has lived experiences. So here I walk into space with this is how it should work maybe for someone who doesn't quite look like me. So, there was certainly a higher hurdle to prove my domain expertise. I'm like, I was an MD at JP Morgan. I led a $22 billion credit card portfolio. I built the firm's ‘buy now, pay later’ plan.

Even people giving you very honest feedback, team slides are generally the last page in a pitch deck. Consistently, people are like, for women and for diverse people, you should have your credential slide upfront because… You’re taking that in, right?

[00:41:32] Jason Rudman: Well, I am, because what you're basically saying is we can't have the rest of the conversation until I, we, whoever, I've kicked the tires, and then I connect it to the 1 percent of venture funding that goes to black founders.

You're describing the perfect storm, and those numbers for women founders are low, and those numbers for Latinos and people of color, those numbers are low. And you're describing that very situation and how you've got to orient yourself to prove your case before you even can talk about what it is you want to do.

[00:42:05] Mical Jeanlys-White: I like to unpack situations, so I felt like one, we've had to immediately show our credentials. Two, convince people that we can build a product that is for everyone. I don't know how many times people are like, oh, so this is just for black women. I know, inhale, right? No, this is for all people.

[00:42:32] Jason Rudman: How does that make you feel? For the audience, Mical and I have known each other for a while; we're not going to say how long. How does that make you feel, and what enables you to keep going and planting the flag?

[00:42:47] Mical Jeanlys-White: I think it's so important, and you and I are both marketers, at the point in which I realized that there were so many leaps that people made before even meeting me, before even taking the meeting, as a marketer, I was like, I will own my narrative.

I will own WealthMore storytelling, down to how we show up in PR releases, how we talk about wealth is for us all, and how we talk about women, everyday Americans, trying to build wealth. We will own our storytelling, and we will also be super intentional about the words we put on the page because the minute we talk about diversity, I don't know how many times we’ve heard, do these people have money?

So, even having to scrub our documents, again, owning the narrative and taking sort of a few steps ahead and then finding the people who really understand. It is finding your audience, finding your own community, even within the venture space, the people who understand that, yes, women can build amazing companies and run them and build products for everyone. Looking at the companies they've already invested in, the people that are part of their ecosystem, so almost having to filter out…

[00:44:10] Jason Rudman: I've got to believe on some level that can be exhausting.

[00:44:13] Mical Jeanlys-White: Absolutely.

[00:44:14] Jason Rudman: There's an inner resolve. Again, you're an entrepreneur, so you're all in on this. The passion with which you talk about creating an experience that works for everybody is the reason why I wanted to talk to you given I think, part of why I was put on this earth is to help improve the financial well-being of the masses who are in a financial system that doesn't work for everybody, as we've talked about. Where does that inner resolve come from? What is it that keeps you…Hey, that door is not open, going to go over here. I'm going to scrub my narrative, but I'm not going to walk away from authentically what I'm trying to do. Where does that come from?

[00:44:52] Mical Jeanlys-White: I think because the bigger vision is so compelling. The future that I see, like the thing I saw on that bike, defeats all the no's.

[00:45:03] Jason Rudman: I'm going to dare say that some of that is also connected to your origin story and how you got here as well. Which is if you think about how the world views Haiti, and how the world thinks about the Haitian community, and how the world thinks about women of color – you’re doing things that are still, in some circles, seen as remarkable and firsts. And I often think, when we look at things in the media, and we're still confronted with the first person of color, the first woman, it's 2024, and we're still celebrating firsts, my sense is that some of that pull is because you are tied to I'm still a ‘first.’

[00:45:47] Mical Jeanlys-White: I think there is a lot of that, but I also have to say, Jason, I’m having so much fun.

[00:45:55] Jason Rudman: I know that. I mean, I see that.

[00:45:58] Mical Jeanlys-White: But I think, like any other tech founder, you are in it for building amazing tech, building an amazing product. And then I have this whole social impact around it and making this whole thing work for more people; the naysayers have been there my entire life. The capital was never there for the dream, but we still got it done. So, some of this stuff, I'm like, tell me when the capital showed up with the dream. It's never happened.

[00:46:27] Jason Rudman: I think that that is also sage advice, I think, for any entrepreneur that's going to step out and say, I've got something. I was on the Peloton bike. I might have been listening to Bob. I could have been listening to something else. I was with Dennis, and I had to step off because I got a post-it note, and I got my 20 seconds. There are so many people that will identify with that moment. And I think your point, which again, has reverberated through other entrepreneurial conversations that I've had, which is, I fell in love with a problem, and I think I know how to solve it, and I'm having fun along the way.

So, how do people learn more about WealthMore and about the incomparable Mical Jeanlys-White?

[00:47:16] Mical Jeanlys-White: I think we told them a lot today.

[00:47:20] Jason Rudman: We did.

[00:47:22] Mical Jeanlys-White: Visit us at Wealthmore.net. Join our communities. Follow us on social media. Open an account. I think we are about to just….change; change is in the air. We want to create more wealth builders. We see the potential in everyone.

[00:47:41] Jason Rudman: More Elephant is about engaging in conversations with people who are changing the world one idea at a time. I couldn't think of a more perfect way to end with how you describe what you're attempting to do.

So, thank you for being in conversation. I heart you. I appreciate, appreciate, appreciate your time. We will continue to follow the WealthMore story, hold you up, and celebrate all that you're doing on behalf of people who very often don't see themselves in the investing and planning environment. So, thank you.

[00:48:17] Mical Jeanlys-White: Thank you Jason. Have fun people!

​ More Elephant Outro